For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1894763
Seems that the total number of U.K. pandemic deaths solely attributable to covid is 17000 with an average age at death of 82.5 years, and that anticipated additional deaths from cancer are around 50,000, unknown number of deaths from other consequential causes and an NHS waitlist in excess of six million.

#1894778
He mentions it in passing, but it is usual for death certificates to carry more than one diagnosis as a contributing factor to the death

(Unless it’s something like injuries arising from a road traffic accident, in which case Covid-only deaths are 10 times RTA. )
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1894780
From a newspaper columnist a couple of days ago:

With the UK set to be one of the first countries to come out of the pandemic, I thought it was worth starting to compile a list of the most lunatic measures. Lest we forget.

Some of my followers on Twitter offered these. I’m sure you will have your own.

1. “Church yesterday. Wafer but no wine for communion. Service followed by wine and biscuits to mark the vicar’s retirement.”

2. “The one where you could work in a control room with multiple people for 12 hours then be breaking the law if you sat on a bench drinking coffee with one of them.”

3. “Forming a socially distanced queue at the airport before being sardined into a packed plane with the same people, two hours later.”

4. “Swings in our local park put into quarantine or removed – even though children were barely at risk from Covid as swings were outside.”

5. “No butterfly stroke allowed while swimming.”

6. “Pubs with no volume on the TV.”

7. “Not allowing people to sit on a park bench. My elderly aunt kept fit by walking her dog every day, but she needed to rest. Since that rule, she stopped going out. She went downhill and died last April.”

8. “I got thrown out of a McDonald’s for refusing to stand on a yellow circle. I was the only customer.”

9. “Yellow and black hazard tape across public seats and benches outdoors.”

10. “I’m stuck in the infant in-patient ward with my nine-day-old sick baby, post C-section, unable to look after him. My husband (same household) is not allowed to be here with us. I’m having panic attacks, which is preventing me from producing milk for the baby.”

11. “I was advised by a council worker to keep my dog on a lead because people might stop to pet her and congregate too closely.”

12. “My bed-ridden mother-in-law with dementia in a care home where only ‘window visits’ were allowed. Mum was on the first floor. Had to wait for someone to die on the ground floor so she could be moved down there and finally seen by her family. After 12 months.”

13. “Two people allowed to go for a walk on a golf course. If they took clubs and balls, it was a criminal offence.”

14. “The one-way system in my local pub, which meant that to visit the loo you had to make a circular journey through the building, ensuring you passed every table.”

15. “My dad was failing in his care home. We weren’t allowed to visit him until the doctor judged he was end-of-life care because of one positive case in the home. We had 24 hours with him before he passed.”

16. “People falling down the escalator on the Underground because they were frightened of touching the handrails – even though you couldn’t get Covid from surfaces.”

17. “Rule of Six. My wife and I have three children so we could meet either my wife’s mum or her dad, but not both at the same time.”

18. “Nobody solved an airborne virus transmission with a one-way system in Tesco.”

19. “How about not being allowed for several months – by law – to play tennis outdoors with my own wife? We’d have been further apart from each other on court than in our own home.”

20. “On two occasions, I was stopped and questioned while taking flowers to my mother’s grave. One time, a police officer even asked for my mum’s name. No idea what he would have done with that information.”

21. “Birmingham City Council cutting the grass in two-metre strips – so the weeds could social-distance?”

22. “Northampton police checking supermarket baskets for non-essential items.”

23. “All the children at school were asked to bring in a favourite book, but it had to be quarantined for two days before being ‘exposed’ to the rest of the class.”

24. “Dr Hilary on Good Morning Britain advising people to wear masks on the beach – and that it would be a good idea to swim in the sea with one on, too.”

25. “Gyms and exercise classes forced to close, but fast-food outlets remained open.”

26. “They taped off every other urinal in my workplace.”

27. “Sign on the inside of work bathroom door: close toilet lid before flushing to prevent plumes of Covid-19.”

28. “We held our carol service in a local park, but had to send out invitations by word of mouth, rather than email, so we’d have plausible deniability if stopped by police.”

29. “Having to wear a disposable apron and gloves while visiting my mother in a care home, while she was on the other side of a floor-to-ceiling Perspex wall.”

30. “Scotch eggs. You couldn’t drink in a pub unless you also had a ‘substantial’ meal.”

31. “Testing of totally healthy people and making them stop work based on a questionable positive test result, when they have no symptoms, creating NHS staff shortages, cancelled operations. Things that, you know, actually kill people…”

32. “My son works in the NHS on the Covid ward and could go to the local Sainsbury's for his lunch. But when we were ill and isolating at home, he had to isolate as well – for 10 days.”

33. “My eight-year-old granddaughter telling me they weren’t allowed to sing Happy Birthday at school for her friend’s ninth birthday.”

34. “It was illegal to see your parents in their back garden, but legal to meet them in a pub garden with lots of other people.”

35. “I had to abandon my weekly choir practice – but my husband was allowed to sing as a spectator at a football match.”

36. “They removed all the bins in Regent's Park and Hampstead Heath.”

37. “Having a flask of tea or coffee on a walk meant it was classified as a picnic – and thus verboten.”

38. “Bring your own biro to a dental appointment to fill in a form declaring you do not have Covid.”

39. “My neighbour refused to hang the washing out to dry – they thought the sheets might catch Covid and infect them.”

40. “My 12-year-old had to sit alone at her grandfather’s funeral – her first experience of one – even though we drove there together and hugged outside. There were three officials watching us all to ensure we didn’t break the rules.”

41. “We could only go outdoors once a day for exercise.”

42. “In pubs, wearing a mask to get from the door to the table, and the table to the toilet – but not wearing a mask while sitting down.”

43. “People in a Tier 3 area walking two minutes down the road for a pint in Tier 2.”

44. “In Wales, supermarkets were allowed to stay open, but the aisles containing children’s clothing and books were taped off. Because buying a baby’s jumper is so much more perilous than picking up a pint of milk.”

45. “The pallbearers all but threw my mother’s coffin in the grave and ran away. They had her down as a Covid death, but she died of cancer.”

46. “The one-way systems around supermarkets that led to people being forced into parts they didn’t want to be in, making them spend more time in the shop – while Covid simply circulated over the top of the shelves.”

47. “Children abandoned by social services and left in the clutches of terrible parents.”

48. “Police breaking into our student house and pinning my girlfriend by the neck up against the wall. I said: ‘This is England – you’re not allowed to do that.’”

49. “Residents of care homes forgetting who they were during the long months when family were not allowed to visit them.”

50. “Dying alone. How many died alone? How many?”


Lest we forget, indeed. :( :(
flybymike, StratoTramp liked this
#1894799
Dave W wrote:Lest we forget, indeed. :( :(


Some of those examples are pretty stupid, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Most, though, are relatively trivial in the big picture of things, and nothing compared to some things that have happened in other countries around the world.

The real stupidity will come if, when this is all over, which may be some time yet, there isn't a very careful ex post analysis to prepare better for the next one. We were caught with our trousers down this time - there will be no excuse for that to be repeated. Especially as next time things really could be much worse.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1894804
Flyingfemme wrote:How credible is this guy? The FOI looks good but it's only a movie.


Further ONS info here.

Please see below for death registrations for 2020 and 2021 (provisional) that were due to COVID-19 and were recorded without any pre-existing conditions, England and Wales.

2020: 9400 (0-64: 1549 / 65 and over: 7851)

2021 Q1: 6483 (0-64: 1560/ 65 and over: 4923)

2021 Q2: 346 (0-64: 153/ 65 and over: 193)

2021 Q3: 1142 (0-64: 512/ 65 and over: 630)


https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... yingcauses
#1894813
Paultheparaglider wrote:
Dave W wrote:Lest we forget, indeed. :( :(

Some of those examples are pretty stupid, especially with the benefit of hindsight...
We were caught with our trousers down this time - there will be no excuse for that to be repeated. Especially as next time things really could be much worse.


If I understand correctly we weren't caught with trousers down, we (in the UK) just had the wrong trousers on.

It is my untutored opinion that we were caught out because we've been lucky enough to have a couple of generations-worth of relative stability and our services and businesses have optimised themselves for a predictable environment with insufficent provision for resilience for unexpected change. We have been fortunate that scientific and medical research had made sufficient progress that a vaccine could be designed(!), manufactured, approved and delivered in such a short time.

Something needed to be done to protect the population in the interim while this new plague could be understood. Setting a simple rule which would work for everyone in all circumstances is impossible, and there will always be boundary conditions where people can ridicule the rule. Adjusting the rule to cater for those boundary conditions make it no longer simple. Common sense cannot be trusted in a novel situation because common sense requires past experience of similar situations. Most of our population has grown up in an environment where serious infectious disease is not part of everyday life. Whoever was caught holding the leadership parcel when the situation struck was bound to be open to criticism after the event, whatever decisions were made.

Sorry, that was intended as a one-liner
kanga, JAFO, Flyingfemme and 1 others liked this
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1894824
Paultheparaglider wrote:Some of those examples are pretty stupid, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Stupidity is to be expected, I suppose. Humans etc.

Although many of those were self-evidently stupid at the time, no hindsight required; pointing it out often brought opprobrium as we can all recall.

It's the many examples of petty cruelty, only some of which are represented in that list, that's more difficult to forgive.
#1894897
StratoTramp wrote:More insanity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60080080



Insanity indeed. We know there are people who fake false negative tests in order to do whatever they wish. We know there are selfish people who will test positive and happily continue about their business. (Novak Djokovic)

I suppose an alternative (less inconvenient) means of solving a situation involving non compliance with the lawful orders of the captain, for the safety of all those on board, would have been to restrain the passenger and place a mask on them. Then the flight could have continued to destination where the arrogant **** would have been arrested.

I imagine you would have a less insane solution?
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By StratoTramp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1894904
Yeah, Accept the protection we have from vacines, protect yourself with a mask if you want and stop treating everyone else as zombies.

I doubt people fake that many tests but what can you do - You will never know. It's outside your sphere of influence.

If people are that worried about covid still at this stage I'd suggest not sitting in an enclosed space for 8 hours, become a hermit and let everyone else get on with life.
Last edited by StratoTramp on Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1894908
StratoTramp wrote:Yeah, Accept the protection we have from vacines, protect yourself with a mask if you want and stop treating everyone else as zombies.

I doubt people fake that many tests but what can you do. You will never know. It's as safe as it's going to get.


The issue here is about the carriage of a passenger who has demonstrated they will not obey the lawful order of the captain? When else will they fail to obey instructions issued purely for the safety of those on board?

When that attitude has been demonstrated, the passenger needs to be restrained or the aircraft diverted. I’m afraid it’s that simple.

You edited your post.

If people are that worried about covid still at this stage I'd suggest not sitting in an enclosed space for 8 hours, become a hermit and let everyone else get on with life.


Or maybe don’t board a flight if you simply can’t wear a flippin’ mask!!!! Your choice! Rather than denying others’ theirs! Or at least delay your travel until the rules become more to your liking? Don’t just decide the rules don’t apply to someone as obviously clever and important as you!

Because if you do cause an aircraft to be diverted, you are likely to be arrested for a far more serious offence than just failing to comply with covid restrictions. You would also deserve to face very significant financial repercussions.
kanga, Flyin'Dutch', JAFO and 1 others liked this
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