For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 14
By avtur3
#1795405
Genuine question, I'm not seeking to be clever or undermine government rules.

A real-life example of why I'm asking the question, I'm a member of several classic car clubs, all have cancelled all events at the start of lockdown, but in recent weeks a couple have tentatively looked to organise socially distant events along the lines of car runs where individuals head towards a common destination.

At the destination, typically a pub, members, as individuals, enter pub/beer garden as customers and comply with all required social distancing rules including giving contact details. Collectively the group attendance will exceed 6, so is that a gathering or a group of individuals?

As a result of the change to calling any more than 6 a gathering one club has cancelled a trip, while the other is going ahead with theirs. Different, well-intentioned interpretations of the same rules :-?
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1795406
Just call it a horse race and it will be fine
johnm, Pete L liked this
User avatar
By romille
#1795408
My take on it is if people from different households sit at different tables and socially distance you are not breaking any rules. Saying that up to six people from multiple households could share a table.
The real problem is that the rules are the usual government fudge and therefore open to interpretation. If the government wants compliance they need to make things simpler and clearer.
By johnm
#1795409
According to the dictionary
an assembly or meeting, especially one held for a specific purpose.


So as long as there aren’t more than 6 of you chatting together (and observing precautions like separation and masks ) at any one time that’s OK as nobody has put limits on a gathering of gatherings

I am not lawyer but I don’t think it matters as Twitter seems to indicate that the lawyers aren’t sure anyway :roll:
By malcolmfrost
#1795416
I would say that if you have 12 people arriving separately in cars, then sit at 2 separate tables then that is OK. If you decide to start swapping tables then that would become a group of 12 and illegal. IMHO!
johnm liked this
User avatar
By rikur_
#1795417
My understanding is that they are changing the law so that the "30" referred to in the below guidance becomes "6" if that helps:
2.9 Can I gather in larger groups for any reason?
You should only be socialising in groups of up to two households (including your support bubble) indoors and outdoors or up to six people from different households when outdoors.

More generally, you can continue to meet in larger groups if necessary for work, voluntary or charitable services, education, childcare or training, elite sporting competition or training, to fulfil legal obligations, to provide emergency assistance, or to enable someone to avoid illness, injury or risk of harm.

It is otherwise against the law for gatherings of more than 30 people to take place in private homes (including gardens and other outdoor spaces). Businesses and venues following COVID-19 Secure guidelines can host larger groups. This is also the case for events in public outdoor spaces that are organised by businesses, charitable or political organisations, and public bodies, provided they take reasonable steps to mitigate the risk of transmission, in line with COVID-19 Secure guidance and including completion of a risk assessment. This can include weddings, civil partnership ceremonies and funerals (which we advise should be limited to no more than 30 people), religious ceremonies and services, community activities and support groups. Any other gathering in an outdoor space or in a private home (or garden) must not be any larger than 30 people.


Edit to add: The current legislation is here - I'm lead to believe this will be the basis of the new legislation with 30 amended to 6
Last edited by rikur_ on Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
#1795419
Well my daughter had just had to cancel my twin 4 y o grandsons 4th surprise party which was to be held at our place .
Cancelled the bouncy castle , cancelled the bloody great cake and goody bags.

At least they did not know about it but it’s heartbreaking all the same.

Peter :(
johnm liked this
User avatar
By Pete L
#1795422
Doesn't a gathering require pipes and cabers?

At least two means of achieving social distancing, never mind what is worn under the kilt.
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1795423
Our local Director of Public Health is of the opinion the pubs (& churches, schools, universities, shops, etc) are regulated premises, therefore fill you can yer boots as the operator has responsibility for ensuring a Covid safe environment. How you arrive and whether you know anyone is incidental, but once you're there you're under the operator's directions.
johnm liked this
User avatar
By Jim Jones
#1795424
Track and trace should have prevented this.

I resent that they’ve labelled NHS track and trace. It’s a mish- mash of wannabes and chancers. (See PPE and railways for earlier examples).

The new rules are now law from Monday. Lawyers will have a field day with the first prosecutions.
Flyin'Dutch', johnm, kanga liked this
By rdfb
#1795426
The current coronavirus law (as linked above) already defines a gathering as follows:

...there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;


The new changes might change that definition, but unless they do, that's what it means. The dictionary meaning is not relevant since the coronavirus law is very specific by defining it.

Now, feel free to ask what "any form of social interaction" means and what "any other activity with each other" means :D
User avatar
By Trent772
#1795428
So, if you needed to arrange an AGM for a Ltd Company or Members Club, I am guessing that this would be allowed, provided that the space - say in a hangar was sufficient for 2m spacing with routes in and out.

Does anyone have a definitive on this, because we had a meeting scheduled which has been cancelled. As members, we are not sure that this is correct.

We need a meeting quite soon, but wish to ensure that we meet the rules and allow any participants to feel confident that they will be safe and correctly protected.

We also need to ensure that the Company understand this, so we can all move forward in a correct manner.

Any assistance would be good, particularly from our "Learned Friends" :mrgreen: :thumleft:
User avatar
By Flying_john
#1795434
The current coronavirus law (as linked above) already defines a gathering as follows:

...there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;


Except when its for education - otherwise all the school, university, college classrooms would be empty.
The question is; When is an education "gathering" a social gathering. i.e is an evening class a social gathering or an education group. Is a football team a social gathering, or an educational gathering. Is the group guitar lesson a social or educational gathering.

???????????????????????????
User avatar
By rikur_
#1795435
Trent772 wrote:

Does anyone have a definitive on this, because we had a meeting scheduled which has been cancelled. As members, we are not sure that this is correct.

My understanding is that the SI changes that will implement this into law haven't been finalised yet, but they are expected to be a variation to SI 2020 no 684.
If the only thing they is amending '30' to '6' then the definitions in that SI would be a good starting point.

Unfortunately like much rushed legislation it is ambiguous and no case law to clarify it
By rdfb
#1795441
rikur_ wrote:
Unfortunately like much rushed legislation it is ambiguous and no case law to clarify it


In what way is it ambiguous? I've always thought that the law itself is quite clear. Confusion only arises when people start speculating about what they heard the law says rather than actually reading it.

It is difficult to read admittedly, but that's a consequence of it being specific and also providing a whole bunch of exceptions. It's not possible to cover many exceptional circumstances, be unambiguous and also be easy to read. The law itself has focused on the former two.
JAFO, Colonel Panic liked this
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 14