For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
#1787697
TheFarmer wrote:Rather than fall out about who should or shouldn’t have a willy, why don’t you all go flying. It’s lovely up here. 8)


I was getting my hair done today and very lovely it is too....not had anything done since the start of March.
Leodisflyer liked this
#1787704
riverrock wrote: @Melanie Moxon - why can't we separate the language for people who don't have a Y chromosome from those who do, but wish to be identified with those who don't? I think Woman / Man used to do this, with Female / Male more closely describing identity. Can we not go back to that and keep it simple?


Because that doesn't help those that are non binary.

It is perfectly possible to be born XY and appear and develop as a cis woman, it's called Swyer syndrome (individuals will have to undergo Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) to go through puberty though.

riverrock wrote:Cisgender was a word invented by German sexologist in 1994 (I believe) and is a translation from German, using latin roots, to describe someone who is still the same gender as they were born as. It does not describe "someone who was born female" on its own. Instead you have to say "Cisgender mother" or some other descriptive word to say whether that person has a Y chromosome or not. It is really only used in academic and specific activist writing. Its not fit for this purpose.


Indeed hence my original comment that it was derived from Cis-Trans

It describes a person who is not trans or non binary perfectly.

riverrock wrote:

A balance has to be struck when it comes to physical ability. However if somebody said "no you have to compete with the men" I would simply give up the sport and find something else

However others are trying to assert their "right" to play the sport as how they identify.

I grew up playing (full contact) rugby with girls and boys in the same team. As kids, the girls grew faster than the boys up till age 12 (or so) and certainly gave as good as they got. However as kids grew, that was no longer appropriate due to the physical differences, and the girls joined a separate team and league. It has to be recognised there are physical differences that matter. That should be in our language and culture. Trying to airbrush over differences, pretending they don't exist, helps no-one.


No genuine trans person thinks that it doesn't matter, in the same way no sane trans person is trying to say that biological sex doesn't exist, the Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (TERFs) might try and convince people otherwise though.

But it leaves you with the issue of creating somewhere for them to go, if a trans woman is rejected from a womans team where does she go, similarly if a trans man is rejected by a mens team where does he go? Should people really be forced to give up their passion just because they are trans?

riverrock wrote:
On GRCs etc, I believe there is a long awaited review on this due to publish at some point. I suspect that noone has wanted to publish the review (which was completed a few years ago - it just needed a government response) as it would raise the ire of activists.

It isn't fit for purpose that someone can assume a different identity because one day they feel like it (just need to propose that they want to change an attribute of sex) based on the equality act, and change how they identify to others and on official documents, yet to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (to official change gender) you have to go through a much bigger process, which doesn't make sense. There shouldn't be two parallel ways.

The safeguards aren't there in the equality act. There have been examples of male kids trying to use this to get into female changing rooms with the obvious (but legally protected) consequences (they are legally protected in prosing that they change some aspect of sex).

Teachers do their best, create separate changing spaces for these kids, who use them twice before returning to their normal changing room to cause havoc in a different way, bragging to their friends leaving traumatised girls. The balance isn't right .


Yes indeed there is, apparently 70% of the responders were in favor of a positive reform (if the leak in the sunday times is to be believed).

The current GRA is not fit for purpose, and there are several reasons why:
1) There is no appeal process, if you get rejected (e.g. there is a document missing) you have to start from scratch.
2) Rejections are often given for stupid reasons, seriously one woman was refused a GRC because she did not get a boob job as it showed that she was incisive, they didn't think laterally that you get natural breast development as part of the hormone treatment.
3) It's dehumanising to be forced to prove who you are to a panel of people that have never met you, never will meet you and only care that boxes are ticked.

In order to get a GRC one of the things you have to do is "live in role" (a term I hate as it makes out that I am a man in drag play acting) for two years, you can't live in role if you can't use those spaces and yes they would use that against you when considering issue of a GRC.

There aren't two parallel paths, the equality act and its wording are quite specific:
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.
(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.


A GRC updates your birth certificate and the gender on your HMRC records, that's it (it can be used for other things but it isn't necessary). The rest comes from a letter written by specialists, my passport was changed to an F marker not because I simply told the passport office, but because the professional psychologist, an expert in the field of transgender issues whom referred me to the private clinic I am using in London wrote a letter to allow that to happen. All fine and dandy for me, I can get that done in six months, it cost me around £800 including travel costs but I got it done. It might take four years for those that have to wait for the NHS to get to that point.

Self ID as it is in the Republic of Ireland for example has been in place for five years and they have had no issue with people using it for nefarious purposes. After all if you want access to a womans changing room for nefarious purposes what are you going to do, legally change your gender or dress up as a janitor?

Can you cite sufficient examples (and by that I mean thousands of cases not a handful) that would make such statistical assertions actually meaningful?

riverrock wrote:
Someone who is struggling with their identity (which includes a lot of kids) will need to get long term and appropriate support to help them work that out. Almost everyone who struggles with his has wider mental health issues.


Yeah, I am well aware of that, I have plenty of demons that were caused by and not the causes of my gender dysphoria and they are thankfully subsiding since I finally came out and socially transitioned last year. People need propper holistic support. One of the big problems is that they don't get it because the gender dysphoria support offered by the Gender Identity Clinics (GICs) is completely separate from the NHS mental health support. Couple that with the now 30 month wait to see a specialist for the first time at an NHS GIC is there any wonder people end up in a state. Imagine finally getting there and then being referred to a mental health specialist to deal with their problems sending them to the back of the list rather than it being run concurrently (after all the second appointment is another 18 months away) .

Thankfully going private (for the initial stages at least) has granted me the privilege to have that holistic support that I would not get through the NHS, its money I'd rather spend on Avgas but needs must.

riverrock wrote:
There are many examples of people who went down a trans path and later regretted it, as the real underlying issue wasn't gender, but that was an easy thing to put a finger on. In some studies only 2% of kids under 12 who were referred to counselling for gender confusion considered themselves a different gender to what they were born once they reached adulthood (reference from here: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... -in-the-uk ).


The detransition rate is around 0.5%:
https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/wp-content/up ... dy-nhs.pdf

Whereas 15% of men regret decision around prostate operations:
https://www.statnews.com/2017/07/12/pro ... nt-regret/

If only 2% of kids going through the doors of Tavistock end up transitioning then surely the process works as it helps those that need to transition and supports those that don't end up transitioning to find the real problem.

riverrock wrote:
Unfortunately the primary Gender Identity NHS clinic (Tavistock) is currently run by an activist who discourages criticism and has been accused by clinicians working there of forcing kids down transitioning plans too early (https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... uits-chaos https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51806962 ) and using puberty blockers without knowing or describing the risks to patients or their families.


Tavistock is the only clinic available for under 18's, it isn't the primary GIC, there are several large NHS clinics for adults and a smattering of private ones.

I chat regularly with a somebody who helps support local transgender kids and their parents as I am (as you might imagine) part of the diversity network for the company I work for, therefore the information they can provide me with helps signposting for colleagues if their child comes out as trans. From what I have been told the process is far more arduous for kids than it is for adults, reports like these are nothing but damaging to the genuine cases, some of them have had so many appointments with those clinics that their frustrations are more than palpable, they don't hand out blockers and hormones like candy.

The side effects and risks of blockers are well known and well understood, the same drugs are used in adults to treat endometriosis and prostate cancer for example. I find it difficult knowing the level of gatekeeping that is part of the NHS process to accept that those accusations are anything but a falsehood, if they turn out to be true then I will be bitterly disappointed, and deeply concerned for genuine trans kids that just want to transition and move on with their lives as that is then in jeopardy.

riverrock wrote:
To me, the large amount of trans-activism and visibility is helping no one. It's confusing and harming kids who are struggling with this - not supporting them. It is intentionally provoking reactions in people, rather than encouraging support. People who have transitioned need to be respected and supported, but there is a difference between that and what is currently happening.


Unfortunately as long as there are vocal anti-trans activists that keep trotting out the same tired arguments time and time again there will be vocal pro-trans activists shouting it down, both sides need to take stock and see the potential damage they could cause.
kanga liked this
#1787708
rusty eagle wrote:Do these activists make life easier for those like you Melanie, who I assume just want go get on with life in the gender that they feel appropriate (hope that's the right term)?


That's as an appropriate a term as any :) and my "take offence" threshold is quite high, I mean it has to be I am on this forum amongst others :lol:

In some instances no, and I take insult from people being offended on my behalf, the hardcore bang the drums activists (sometimes needed and when they are that's great) but often paint too narrower picture of what a trans person is and they can often appear to be loud and shouty, when what people really want is something calm and easy to digest, let's face it nobody likes being shouted at unless you are in a Monty Python sketch.

I'd rather people like the Graf's, Ayla Holdom, Fox and Owl (my Genderation) with informative and well created articles and videos be the real voice. I'm quite happy to be a voice too as I like to think I am a reasonable lass.

PeteSpencer wrote:Have you read David/Diana Thomas yet?

Award winner for journalism.

Peter


Naw, said articles are behind an adblocker wall. Though I am aware of Diana Thomas' column.
kanga liked this
#1787719
lobstaboy wrote:Melanie you get the prize for the longest post (allowing quotes) ever.
Respect!


<curtsy> Why thank you :D

Some things needed to be said, I could have made it far shorter but then I'd have come over as the typical facebook blockhead that uses phrases like "your[sic] wrong" and the like :lol:
#1787722
It was far too long for me to attempt to study I'm afraid, especially on an iThingy

I'm sure you're right in what you say but I'm kinda sympathetic to Bill's camp.

All the best

Out.

Peter :thumleft: :thumleft:
#1787724
I hesitate to get involved in case my comments might be taken the wrong way......I mean no disrespect to anyone but I'm genuinely not terribly interested in the sex/gender of anybody else. Unless I am trying to get into their knickers..........As I have have been happily married for three decades that isn't an issue. People are people and they come in a million shades. I don't like liars, cheats or thieves but everyone else is taken as they present and we either have stuff in common, or we don't. People should be allowed to do pretty much whatever they like as long as it doesn't negatively impact others. But framing a law to enforce that becomes the problem...............
#1787726
@Melanie Moxon - Melanie, have you watched Transparent on Amazon Prime? I'd be interested in your thoughts on how it dealt with the topic of transgender in general? I watched all of it a while ago, and have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. It also broke down some preconceptions that I may have had before seeing it. And I thought that Jeffrey Tambor was excellent.

[Ignore the question if you'd prefer :) ]
#1787727
PeteSpencer wrote:It was far too long for me to attempt to study I'm afraid, especially on an iThingy

I'm sure you're right in what you say but I'm kinda sympathetic to Bill's camp.

All the best

Out.

Peter :thumleft: :thumleft:


Unfortunate, because the abridged version of how I came to be is about 2000 words :lol:

Flyingfemme wrote:I hesitate to get involved in case my comments might be taken the wrong way......I mean no disrespect to anyone but I'm genuinely not terribly interested in the sex/gender of anybody else. Unless I am trying to get into their knickers..........As I have have been happily married for three decades that isn't an issue. People are people and they come in a million shades. I don't like liars, cheats or thieves but everyone else is taken as they present and we either have stuff in common, or we don't. People should be allowed to do pretty much whatever they like as long as it doesn't negatively impact others. But framing a law to enforce that becomes the problem...............


If everyone had your attitude the world would be a far better place, there would be no need for protected characteristics et al and for the most part we'd all get along.

Could you explain the last sentence please? I am unsure as to what you mean by it, if it were aimed at anything I had said above.
#1787737
Colonel Panic wrote:@Melanie Moxon - Melanie, have you watched Transparent on Amazon Prime? I'd be interested in your thoughts on how it dealt with the topic of transgender in general? I watched all of it a while ago, and have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. It also broke down some preconceptions that I may have had before seeing it. And I thought that Jeffrey Tambor was excellent.

[Ignore the question if you'd prefer :) ]


I can't say that I have seen it, I don't have any pay TV services so I miss a lot of programs sorts of programs. If I am not at the airfield or out with friends (remember doing that pre-lockdown), being a nerd (I was one before it was cool :shock: ) much of my leisure time is spent, gaming, creating youtube content and watching aviation related (mostly) YouTube channels.
Colonel Panic liked this