For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Genghis the Engineer
#1781202
As the de Havilland design team allegedly used to name their designs after whatever pub they were drinking in at the time, this is off to a good start. Clearly, it's a Defender rip-off, which nobody but the lawyers are denying.

What does anybody think? The hydrogen/electric variant looks particularly interesting going forwards.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/ ... ealed.html

G
By Bill Haddow
#1781212
Most of the people who would like one won't be able to afford a new one. The decision makers who purchase / lease vehicles for utility companies and similar have moved to vans and pick-ups and are unlikely to move back . I doubt if (UK) military sales, if any, would be enough to take the sales up to a viable level..

Bill H
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By rf3flyer
#1781219
Genghis the Engineer wrote: The hydrogen/electric variant looks particularly interesting going forwards.

What does it look like going backwards?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I detest that management-speak.
Hat, coat, bye...
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By Rob P
#1781228
Ah yes, how well I remember downing pints at The Chipmunk then going on to The Beaver for a quick one.

I saw my first 'new' Defender on the road yesterday and all I could think is "Why?"

Rob P
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1781231
Like the look, think it may well prove popular.

If it works well, i.e. have non of the traits the LR had (rust/terrible ride/awful position) it may even work well as an export product.

Starting out with no electric option (not even a PHEV) is a (possibly costly) missed opportunity.
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By RichJordan
#1781232
Bill Haddow wrote:Most of the people who would like one won't be able to afford a new one. The decision makers who purchase / lease vehicles for utility companies and similar have moved to vans and pick-ups and are unlikely to move back . I doubt if (UK) military sales, if any, would be enough to take the sales up to a viable level..

Bill H


Exactly this. Ineos marketing suggests that the retirement of the old Defender left a gap in the market for a off-road utility vehicles - in reality the Defender hadn't filled this gap for years. Farmers, utility companies all moved to fleets of pickup trucks long before the overdue death of the Defender.

The army (rightly) took a lot of flak for sending troops into hostile territory in Land Rovers. I can't see the Grenadier being able to made IED proof ("V" hull etc). The army has moved on and has purpose built vehicles.

I've had several Defenders. To be honest they were rubbish. I've got a Ford Ranger now for carrying stuff and winter duties, it's very good. Well equipped, comfortable, developed and supported by a huge international company.

They say they're looking for 25,000 sales a year. I hope the Grenadier succeeds, but they're kidding themselves if they don't think it's main market isn't going to be "lifestyle" customers. They'll all be pulling horseboxes and carrying mountain bikes.
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By Rob P
#1781241
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Like the look, think it may well prove popular.


Was this the Defender or the Grenadier?

My puzzlement with the Defender is purely that I can't see the market segmentation thinking that has caused it to happen. The Range Rover, Discovery and Defender all appear to be appealing to the same segment whilst the Evoque is just about the only one that has a separate market, dyed-blonde ladies of a certain age heading for the botox clinic.

I do note that the 'Rangy' is now an equal first choice with the 'Beemer' for Liverpool gangsters and their aficionados.

Whatever happened to the little LR sort of 4x4 that had a well-earned reputation for unreliability and was head to head with the Rav-4 and its ilk? The name escapes me.

Rob P

Edit: Freelander
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1781245
@Rob P Grenadier.

Freelander - had to think hard as 'reputation for unreliability' is not a major distinctive feature in the LR line-up.

@RichJordan

Is 25000 what they aim for?

That's tiny and probably way too small a number to survive. I know that they are sourcing most stuff from others so development costs will not have been to bad but that's a very small number.
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By RichJordan
#1781251
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
@RichJordan

Is 25000 what they aim for?

That's tiny and probably way too small a number to survive. I know that they are sourcing most stuff from others so development costs will not have been to bad but that's a very small number.


Yes, and I'm fairly sure the Defender didn't sell close to 25,000 units.

As Bill H mentioned above, the people who really want one of these, for throwing up a rocky green lane or a day of getting muddy won't be buying one new. Why would you risk a £40,000 vehicle when you can just keep picking up ratty Defenders for £5,000.

RichJordan wrote:they're kidding themselves if they don't think it's main market isn't going to be "lifestyle" customers. They'll all be pulling horseboxes and carrying mountain bikes.


But then by marketing to the military and utility companies is probably EXACTLY how you attract the lifestyle consumer market who are looking for something with the kudos of a workhorse rather than a plush SUV. Clever marketing perhaps.

(Yes, it looks like I'm having an argument with myself here).
Last edited by RichJordan on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1781255
RichJordan wrote:
And I'm fairly sure the Defender didn't sell close to 25,000 units.



Am sure you're right.

But the development costs of the LR Series were probably amortised in 1948!
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By Rob P
#1781260
Land Rover sold 17.137 Defenders worldwide in JLR’s fiscal year 2013, compared to 16.199 in 2012 and 19.736 in 2012. Europe only accounted for 810 of those 2013 sales, or less than 5%, and as the Defender is not sold in North America, we can conclude that the bulk of the model’s orders come from other regions, where emission and safety standards are less strict. Regions where off-road capabilities, easy-to-repair and towing capabilities are more important than a comfortable ride, a plush interior and 20 inch wheels.


Rob P
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By eltonioni
#1781303
It sounds like ten a week in the UK and presumably there are more than ten dealers so those sales are as rubbish as the vehicles. Mind you, ISTR that the dealer margin on a RR is +£30k so they don't need to sell many inbetween getting pished in their tent at country shows.

Presumably the INEOS wagon will be bought either by people like my mate who uses his eye wateringly expensive Twisted Defender as a toy for shooting n fishing when he's not in one of his collection of exotica, or student landlords with good credit ratings who desperately shell out monthlies to be the cool dude pulling up to the trendy bar on a Saturday afternoon. I'd have one. :lol:
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By oldbiggincfi
#1781330
It's not the vehicle that interests me .
Little information seems to be available on the development of Hydrogen Fuel Cells .
Clearly progress has been made otherwise future options would not be mentioned .
Recently, In the news was HFC powered JCB digger .
There's a lot of power required there, even to compare with a 3litre BMW engine in the Grenadier.
Aviation applications surely must follow if this a genuine leap forward .