For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Miscellaneous
#1704031
riverrock wrote:Free Speech is a thing.

Nope, it's not. This ain't the USA. Freedom of expression comes with quite a few limits on what can be said. Saying it under the guise of religion is not, as far as I am aware, an acceptable excuse. Although I will grant you the tolerance of such probably exceeds the law. :thumleft:
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1704033
@Flyin'Dutch' To put an equivalent point, do you think it is OK for someone to make anti-religious comments?

If so, why?

Christian faith teaches that everyone is loved and should be loved no matter what, but it also teaches how God wants us to live and that this doesn't always match what we think.

Listening to others views, even when we think they are wrong, then challenging them is an important part of a healthy society.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1704042
I don't think that being religious is a sin to draw the equivalent.

To suggest that homosexuality is a sin is not akin to teaching that everyone is loved.

The bible is a repository was written long time ago and as anyone knows didactic material needs to be reviewed and updated regularly to remain relevant.
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By Miscellaneous
#1704047
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I don't think that being religious is a sin to draw the equivalent.

The notion of sin is objectionable to some. To use it in the above context gives it credence I'm not sure you intended, FD? :D
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1704049
Miscellaneous wrote:
riverrock wrote:Free Speech is a thing.

Nope, it's not. This ain't the USA. Freedom of expression comes with quite a few limits on what can be said. Saying it under the guise of religion is not, as far as I am aware, an acceptable excuse. Although I will grant you the tolerance of such probably exceeds the law. :thumleft:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... /chapter/9 As I'm sure you're aware.
Don't need an excuse, until it turns into discrimination (treating someone unfairly - so actively doing or not doing something because of a characteristic of that person),

I have a right to base my opinions on pretty much anything I want to, and have a right to express those opinions without interference from any part of the state.
By riverrock
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#1704050
Miscellaneous wrote:The notion of sin is objectionable to some.

If you don't recognise "God", then why would you care about the concept of "sin" - which is essentially something against God's known will?
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1704052
That is not the modern or generally accepted definition of sin.

My daughters regularly accuse me of committing a fashion sin.

Anyway back a few posts I asked you if you thought whether it was OK for someone to make homophobic comments. Do you think it is?
By riverrock
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#1704053
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:To suggest that homosexuality is a sin is not akin to teaching that everyone is loved.

The concept is to love the person - not what they are doing.
Hence you get prison chaplains.

There is also nothing in the bible against having same sex attraction. The issue comes in what someone does with that attraction. Our bodies were clearly not designed for it.

And to be clear, it is considered just as much a sin (against God's will) for a heterosexual people to be living outside of marriage, and many churches treat as equivalent.
However that group isn't as vocal about their "rights". A gay couple would be treated in my church in the same way as a heterosexual living together couple. Both couples would be welcomed.
God loves everyone.
But neither behaviour would be encouraged.

To put it in another context, in 10 years, this subject has been preached about once in my church. It isn't the church that keeps bringing up these topics.
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By Miscellaneous
#1704055
riverrock wrote:...have a right to express those opinions without interference from any part of the state.

Nope, it depends entirely on what those opinions are.
riverrock wrote:
If you don't recognise "God", then why would you care about the concept of "sin" - which is essentially something against God's known will?

It's similar to those basing their world views on one of the most immoral books ever written judging my morality as inferior to their own. :D
By johnm
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#1704056
In looking at religion one has to remember that rituals and holy books were largely written by the powerful and they are designed to manage the population and its public health in some cases. Much of what is contained was relevant when it was written and is now so out of date as to be silly in some ways.

For example the Church of England creed is a political statement and Jewish and Muslim strictures against pork are public health issues, because in their world the meat was often polluted by parasites.
By riverrock
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#1704062
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Anyway back a few posts I asked you if you thought whether it was OK for someone to make homophobic comments. Do you think it is?

The word "homophobic" is a charged word.
It would describe a comment that exhibits "intense hatred or fear of homosexual people or homosexuality" (Collins English Dictionary)

I don't think it is acceptable to make a comment which shows an "intense hatred or fear of homosexual people or homosexuality"

I do think it is acceptable to make a comment which is against the full LGBTIQ+ ideology, which is a huge and sometimes dangerous movement, which shouts down its detractors.

Is it OK for a medic (or the NHS) to discourage certain types of sexual activity because our bodies were clearly not designed to do it, so as such, there are a whole list of likely problems associated with it?
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1704064
@riverrock

Cheers, so we agree that homophobic comments are not acceptable.

riverrock wrote:I do think it is acceptable to make a comment which is against the full LGBTIQ+ ideology, which is a huge and sometimes dangerous movement, which shouts down its detractors.

Is it OK for a medic (or the NHS) to discourage certain types of sexual activity because our bodies were clearly not designed to do it, so as such, there are a whole list of likely problems associated with it?


What is that LGBTIQ+ ideology?

When/what is dangerous about it, when?

What types of sexual activity would that be?
By riverrock
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#1704066
johnm wrote:holy books were largely written by the powerful .

Which part of the New Testament was written by people who were powerful in their own right?

People have used religions to control others - I do agree with that. Plenty of evidence right now (see China's control over Christian churches, links between Russian Orthodox church and government. Much of it goes against the foundations and fundamentals of that religion - add ons which don't relate to the religion itself. Catholic church in medieval Europe was a political fiefdom. It is very different now.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1704069
riverrock wrote: It is very different now.


Clearly it is better now but in several countries a variety of churches do still have an inordinate amount of influence on politics and life in general beyond promoting virtuous living.

In no particular order and not exclusively:

Russia
USA
Saudi Arabia
Italy
UK
Germany
Most of South America