Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

#1678232
spaughty wrote:Which is the point I was also trying to make. If official bodies treated the public more honestly and with more respect, they might have more credibility when it matters.

johnm wrote:That is an interesting insight but not relevant to conspiracy theory. It is akin to the old “all elephants are grey therefore all grey things are elephants “ discussion


Could you expand, John? I'm struggling to see the connection here.

@PaulB: it seems the Egg Producers' conspiracy started even earlier than you thought! :-)
Diet, serum cholesterol and coronary artery disease
#1678267
When you look at previous conspiracies (not theories - actual ones), such as Suez - then it's actually quite hard not to then question "which ones haven't been discovered?" and "is what we're being told on current events a conspiracy?"

Who remembers all those Kuwaiti babies getting thrown out incubators by Saddam's evil henchmen?
Or the masses of Iraqi troops on the border with Saudi?
Saddam:9/11.
Gulf of Tonkin incident - a false flag operation?
Or the 1954 incidents when Western targets in Egypt got blown up by Israeli operatives with the aim of blaming Egyptian militants?

Which of the above are conspiracy theories, and which are actual conspiracies?

What, in fact, differentiates the two?
skydriller liked this
#1678281
kanga wrote:
Cns416 wrote:...

.. Iraqi Weapons of mass destruction fantasy promulgated by HMG and its lackey's ...


.. and that characterisation of the issue might itself be described as a 'conspiracy theory' .. :roll:

On my readings list is the book by (IIRC) Saddam's chief scientist, who had centrifuge parts buried in his garden.

The dossier might have been dodgy, but Kurds really were gassed, a nation really was oppressed, opponents and anyone who looked a bit funny were tortured, murdered, etc etc.

Regime change might be a bit iffy legally, and war does a lot of human and infrastructure damage but I can't find a good reason for not removing Saddam and his family by some means. Maybe the methods were wrong, maybe a much simpler conspiracy might have been appropriate, like a BUK missile up his helicopter's chuff. Maybe a conspiracy isn't always bad.
#1678345
How do we win the argument against deniers whether it be a conspiracy theory or something else?

An example would be childhood vaccination which has seen a steady decline over the last few years and where there are many “anti-vax” stories, particularly on social media.

Once people have decided to accept the “anti-vax” argument, how can they be persuaded that their views are incorrect? Throwing science and facts at them will not work. What will?

I picked vaccination as it is in the news again today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47417966
#1678370
PaulB wrote:Once people have decided to accept the “anti-vax” argument, how can they be persuaded that their views are incorrect? Throwing science and facts at them will not work. What will?


The next measles epidemic.
kanga liked this
#1678405
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
PaulB wrote:Once people have decided to accept the “anti-vax” argument, how can they be persuaded that their views are incorrect? Throwing science and facts at them will not work. What will?


The next measles epidemic.


Unfortunately, that’s what we’re trying to avoid.
#1678410
One thing we do know is that telling people that they are stupid is an especially stupid way of trying to change their mind.

That middle class mummy, who has made up her mind because of talk on Mumsnet has the safety of her "DD" or "DS" as her utmost priority, and even if her "DH" would prefer the kids to be vaccinated he's going with the easy route. (Have a look at Mumsnet if the somewhat infantile abbreviations don't mean anything)

There's a kind of peer group pressure at work, underscored with a value that is impeccable it's honesty and purpose, ie doing their best for the kids. She loves her kids, she wants the best. Realistically who can tell a mother that she's doing it wrong by insisting that she's hurting children and expect her to change her mind straight away? That's just bullying.

People seem to be capable of making a 180 turn through absorbing different information that appeals to their core status in life / reasons for belief. That might be very different to how many other people (let's call them the persuaders) see things. It's up to those persuaders to make a better case that appeals to the core values in a way that is actually respectful, because as sure as eggs are eggs, a facile presentation will not change minds, and might even add another layer of conspiracy.

At that point I'm afraid I'm out of ideas, over to the sector experts for a plan of action that will persuade. :D

Edit, it just occurred to me as an enthusiastic believer in Galton's Ox that maybe it's not necessary to change all minds, just enough to maintain the herd's immunity.
JAFO liked this
#1678444
eltonioni wrote:There's a kind of peer group pressure at work, underscored with a value that is impeccable it's honesty and purpose, ie doing their best for the kids. She loves her kids, she wants the best. Realistically who can tell a mother that she's doing it wrong by insisting that she's hurting children and expect her to change her mind straight away? That's just bullying.
.


Ah ha, it is now the fault of the 'persuaders'

How about people taking some responsibility for their actions and beliefs?

Ultimately there comes a time that we have to treat adults as ........... adults and leave them to make their own decisions.

There are now child caring facilities which are refusing to take in unvaccinated children, maybe that will help.

Or we need go get something laid down in law.

After all we don't allow Jehova's witnesses let their children die by not letting them have a transfusion if that is life saving.
#1678453
I was merely suggesting that some jurisdiction circumnavigate the issue by making it mandatory to vaccinate kids.

Societies regulate many other facets of human behaviour to get the desired outcome.

I usually find people are poorly informed or anxious when they decide not to vaccinate their children.
#1678456
So you are proposing enforced vaccination by locking up parents and confiscating children.

I'm not personally very comfortable with that, but am curious to know if where it is mandatory, whether it gives rise to other conspiracies, or if people just fall in line.
Last edited by eltonioni on Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1678457
Nothing needs to be enforced, you just give up acess to certain parts of normal society

No vaccination should mean no schooling. I can see a business opportunity - private school for anti-Vaxers. Surprised this isn’t a Tory policy. Where’s Toby Young when you need him?

No vaccination then no access to public transport or areas where the vulnerable may be, such as hospitals, play areas, supermarkets etc.

The self obsessed nihilists would soon get the message that you can’t be a good parent unless you care for all children, not just your own little homunculi.
#1678463
eltonioni wrote:So you are proposing enforced vaccination by locking up parents and confiscating children.

I'm not personally very comfortable with that, but am curious to know if where it is mandatory, whether it gives rise to other conspiracies, or if people just fall in line.


So what is your solution to this issue?

Mandatory Vaccinations in

UK (smallpox until 1948)
Australia
US
France
Switzerland
#1678469
Vaccinnation fears are not new. My Mum vaccinated me against everything *except* smallpox in the early 60's.