Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

#1663723
just a technical issue on the discussion of guns chaps, please either call them airguns, guns, firearms or whatever suits, but please do not call them "weapons", this is actually quite offensive to those that shoot legally for sport. A gun is not a weapon until the user uses it in that way, in the same way a carving knife isn't a weapon when used correctly.
T67M, SteveN, johnm and 3 others liked this
By Crash one
#1663753
Sooty25 wrote:just a technical issue on the discussion of guns chaps, please either call them airguns, guns, firearms or whatever suits, but please do not call them "weapons", this is actually quite offensive to those that shoot legally for sport. A gun is not a weapon until the user uses it in that way, in the same way a carving knife isn't a weapon when used correctly.


You are correct.
But, why is my licence issued by Police Scotland, for an air weapon it’s power is classed as low power (sub 12lbf)?
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1663761
sporting gun users don't stand a chance when those issuing the licences do that I guess. :|

"weapon" is a taboo word at our club and rightly so. Didn't mean to leap on anyone. :thumright:
By chevvron
#1663776
Crash one wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:just a technical issue on the discussion of guns chaps, please either call them airguns, guns, firearms or whatever suits, but please do not call them "weapons", this is actually quite offensive to those that shoot legally for sport. A gun is not a weapon until the user uses it in that way, in the same way a carving knife isn't a weapon when used correctly.


You are correct.
But, why is my licence issued by Police Scotland, for an air weapon it’s power is classed as low power (sub 12lbf)?

The law in Scotland is different to England and Wales.
In Scotland, you need an 'Air Weapon Certificate' (AWC) to own airguns of any sort producing more than 0.74 ft/lb muzzle energy up to 6 ft/lb ME for a pistol and up to 12 ft/lb ME for a rifle; you are the person licenced and you can own as many as you like once you have the certificate.
For the rest of us, for an Air Rifle producing more than 12 ft/lb ME and/or an Air Pistol producing more than 6 ft/lb ME you will need to be in possession of a Firearms Certificate. (FAC) and each gun must be listed on the FAC and its purchase approved in advance by the issuing authority. For airguns below these limits, no form of licence or certificate is required.
Not sure but I believe in Northern Ireland you need an FAC for ALL air guns.
All countries have different legislation for air guns (note I am avoiding the use of the word weapon) eg in Germany, the 'legal' limit is roughly half the England/Wales limit.
By Crash one
#1663796
A point of clarity.
Air rifles/pistols. Muzzle energy is measured in “pounds force” not “foot pounds”. There are manufacturers that get that wrong as well.
User avatar
By Gertie
#1663811
Sooty25 wrote:just a technical issue on the discussion of guns chaps, please either call them airguns, guns, firearms or whatever suits, but please do not call them "weapons", this is actually quite offensive to those that shoot legally for sport. A gun is not a weapon until the user uses it in that way

My lad has an air rifle. It is a weapon.

(He's a pest controller, and has all the training and paperwork.)
User avatar
By Dave Phillips
#1663902
Sooty25 wrote:sporting gun users don't stand a chance when those issuing the licences do that I guess. :|

"weapon" is a taboo word at our club and rightly so. Didn't mean to leap on anyone. :thumright:


Hmm, whilst I understand the sentiment, I’m not sure that it is as black-and-white as that. A sporting rifle, pistol, bow-and-arrow, crossbow etc is a development of a weapon. Yes, we can argue about carving knives or even motor vehicles but the point still stands that a 17th century flintlock wasn’t designed or used as a sporting tool to hit paper targets at 25m range.

Sporting guns are weapons that are used for alternative reasons. I’ve handled guns (various) for 40 years or so and, in my mind, they are all weapons.
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1663930
Dave, ultimately we know you are right, but if we brag about them being weapons rather than encouraging people to see them as the sporting implement they are used for, we'll have even more interfering do-gooders trying to get everything above a spudgun banned.
The FAC and club system seems to keep legal guns under control, in the same way I expect drones would be. Responsible users rarely cause issues.

But we all know illegally held guns and drones won't ever follow rules.
By riverrock
#1663932
This sounds to me a like a way to manage the media around the sport.
Some would call shooting animals "sport".

So we all agree then that the items are weapons. Their purpose is to propel a projectile at high speed into a target. You could say that in a different way with the same meaning: "attack the target accurately with the weapon". The original purpose of the sports was to better prepare marksmen for combat. The sports have been refined, but that is their history.

Now I don't have anything against the weapons use in sports, with participants competing against each other in their accuracy (etc). I've enjoyed firing a whole series of weapons in ranges, from single shot rifles in a university gun club to shot guns, hand guns, semi-automatic rifles and revolvers in South Africa. I've been trained to facilitate archery during kids activity programmes. However not recognising that these tools are weapons can leave people not respecting them suitably? Ther e is a difference between respecting them and bragging about them.

I should say - I'm not currently a member of any weapons clubs, but I do respect those who are.

Is it just your club that the word is taboo @Sooty25 ? In a very quick glance, the word "weapon" is used in sport shooting magazines, shops, manufacturer websites and legislation. If they were so offensive, surely that wouldn't be the case?
User avatar
By skydriller
#1663968
Dave Phillips wrote:A sporting rifle, pistol, bow-and-arrow, crossbow etc is a development of a weapon. Yes, we can argue about carving knives or even motor vehicles but the point still stands that a 17th century flintlock wasn’t designed or used as a sporting tool to hit paper targets at 25m range.

Sporting guns are weapons that are used for alternative reasons. I’ve handled guns (various) for 40 years or so and, in my mind, they are all weapons.


Ive highlighted the word you are looking for: Guns, Crossbows, Air Rifles, Machetes, Knives and Drones are TOOLS.

They can be used for various purposes by people

Regards, SD..
User avatar
By Dave Phillips
#1663975
SD, we can beg to differ. To me they (firearms) are weapons that can be used for a number of reasons and actively choosing not to use the term weapon is a bit of weasel-wording.

For clarity, I'm not-anti 'gun'; I'm an RCO within the cadet forces, we teach our youngsters everything from air rifle up to full bore target rifles shooting up to 600m range, our squadron attends Bisley every year with two of our cadets being in the top 50 across all cadet forces. We also partake in Clay Shooting. Shooting is a core skill (for all those good reasons) within our unit. We will also continue to use the term weapon. :)

Anyway, back to drones......
kanga, Flyin'Dutch', Colonel Panic and 1 others liked this
User avatar
By defcribed
#1664124
Dave Phillips wrote:We will also continue to use the term weapon. :)


When I used to shoot quite a lot at Bisley, there was a strong correlation between those who said 'weapon' rather than 'rifle' and those who:

wore camouflage clothing;
were keen on conspiracy theories, and;
seemed to lack conventional social skills.

They were disconcertingly numerous.

Just sayin' :D
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1664266
Dave Phillips wrote:SD, we can beg to differ. To me they (firearms) are weapons that can be used for a number of reasons and actively choosing not to use the term weapon is a bit of weasel-wording.

For clarity, I'm not-anti 'gun'; I'm an RCO within the cadet forces, we teach our youngsters everything from air rifle up to full bore target rifles shooting up to 600m range, our squadron attends Bisley every year with two of our cadets being in the top 50 across all cadet forces. We also partake in Clay Shooting. Shooting is a core skill (for all those good reasons) within our unit. We will also continue to use the term weapon. :)

Anyway, back to drones......


Two different routes to the same tool, yours leading cadets in to armed service who's ultimate role may be to use any tool given, whether it be a gun, explosives or a drone to effect a kill.

Alternatively, the target shooter using his gun seeking consistent 100 score , the tunnel worker using explosives to release stone for a transport link, or the professional drone pilot searching for missing persons.