[Flyin'Dutch']

The overriding factor, is the veracity of the evidence.... in the Lee Rigby case, it was total, unquestionable and witnessed. Once convicted, they should have been "quietly disposed-of " (army firing-squad would seem apposite!) With justice, we'd also have a cost-effectiveness. No need to make the guilty into martyrs. Quietly "export sympathisers as well....seems to have worked in the cases of ISIS jihadis who have either been eradicated or their citizenship (right to live in a civilised society) revoked.

The bar needs to be set extremely high, due to the afore-mentioned lack of probity among those entrusted to assemble and enforce a justice -system of integrity, honesty and fairness. The Rigby murderers pass easily under that bar, they should swing from it, unheralded and unannounced,

Steve, a few links for you here and here

[OCB]

So, getting back a bit into what can be done about knife crime, some observations mostly covered

1. There is a difference between carrying and using
2. Prison doesn't work as a deterrent - but being banged up until court hearing does seemed to have helped in Scotland.
3. Prison is expensive, acting as a Uni for Scrotes, and recruiting ground for ji-tards.
4. Knocking off the obviously guilty, whilst might save on long term imprisonment probably doesn't act as a deterrent.
5. The law, apparently is a bit of a donkey

Not much talk of non-imprisonment "correctional" possibilities, oddly enough.

I've not been the only one over the decades who has advocated at least investigating behavioural techniques that can these days be verified to some extent via fMRI as "effective" or not.

Still, after all these years, I do feel getting plod out his car and walking the streets night and day wouldn't hurt...

[Sooty25]

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

All I can say to that is, 9/11

[Flyin'Dutch']

Still, after all these years, I do feel getting plod out his car and walking the streets night and day wouldn't hurt...

The old bobby on the beat argument.

No evidence that works.

What we need is a lot more officers and deploy them smart.

That means most of the time they should be dealing with crime reduction, prevention and dealing with reported crime so that rates of convictions go up and rates of crimes down.

And where appropriate be visible and work as a deterrent for smart ær5es on a Friday and Saturday night.

[Mike Tango]

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

All I can say to that is, 9/11

And all I can say to that is you need to do a bit more research.

[romille]

So, getting back a bit into what can be done about knife crime, some observations mostly covered

1. There is a difference between carrying and using
2. Prison doesn't work as a deterrent - but being banged up until court hearing does seemed to have helped in Scotland.
3. Prison is expensive, acting as a Uni for Scrotes, and recruiting ground for ji-tards.
4. Knocking off the obviously guilty, whilst might save on long term imprisonment probably doesn't act as a deterrent.
5. The law, apparently is a bit of a donkey

Not much talk of non-imprisonment "correctional" possibilities, oddly enough.

I've not been the only one over the decades who has advocated at least investigating behavioural techniques that can these days be verified to some extent via fMRI as "effective" or not.

Still, after all these years, I do feel getting plod out his car and walking the streets night and day wouldn't hurt...

The reason prison no longer works is because jails are soft with TV's and phones in cells, mainly thanks to to the Prison reform trust, the Howard league and other do Gooders. It often seems that there are more people looking after the interests of the criminals rather than their victims.

[Flyin'Dutch']

The reason prison no longer works is because jails are soft with TV's and phones in cells, mainly thanks to to the Prison reform trust, the Howard league and other do Gooders. It often seems that there are more people looking after the interests of the criminals rather than their victims.

The plural of TV is TVs not TV's.

Anyway the reason prison doesn't work is because:

1. They are over crowded;
2. Under resourced in staff and facilities;
3. There are too many people in Prison who shouldn't be there - the with health and mental health problems are particularly not managed appropriately;
4. Too many people are ending up in prisons for too short a period of time which means their training and rehabilitation programmes can not be undertaken;
5. There is no effective management of these people when they get out of prison.

Again all of the above needs to be addressed but it takes some time, money and resource for this to work and we will save OUR money, make OUR lives safer and make OUR world a better place*

Sticking offenders in prison and chucking the key away to let them rot away may make the red-top lovers feel better but is a waste of OUR money and making OUR society less safe.



*All scientifically proven and empirically delivered, not only in 'liberal lefty' countries but also until a few years back in the UK.

**No doubt some will think I must be a goat woollen sock wearing tree hugger, and I won't deny that I like to think I have compassion with my fellow humans, but I have enough first hand experience working in prisons, custody and the judicial system to know that there are folks there who are beyond redemption and for whom prison is the right place. But the vast majority are people who need to get retrained, rehabilitated, treated and out of the judicial/criminal system not just for them but for us so we can save money and have safer communities and lives.

[johnm]

Prison as punishment is medieval and all evidence suggests it’s pointless and expensive overall.

There are people who need to be permanently incarcerated for the protection of the public, but they are relatively few.

The most successful regime is rehabilitation which is costly in terms of direct costs, but much more cost effective to society in the longer term.

[Flyin'Dutch']

#Succinct

[RichardPearse]

as CS has already stated above plenty of folks have been found guilty of equally heinous crimes and were later found not guilty.

As repugnant as those guilty of the killing of Lee Rigby are, killing them in the name of justice would serve no purpose.

Those convicted would be allowed umpteen costly reviews and appeals (as can be seen in the States - unless you think we need to adopt a Chinese or Iranian justice system), once killed they would achieve martyrdom amongst their equally deluded and brain washed idiot mates, and no doubt encourage them to undertake more crimes to achieve martyrdom.

We need to be the wiser, there is no point to stoop to their level of dumbness.

I vaguely recall once reading a statistic that suggested it was cheaper, in America, to jail someone for life rather than putting them on death row. Due to the length of the appeals process etc.

It was probably just grabbed off the Internet so no idea how true it is. But food for thought if it is.

[MachFlyer]

With regard to the bring back hanging argument I suspect that at the time there was “no doubt” in the public’s mind of the guilt of the Guildford Four & Birmingham Six

[Flyin'Dutch']

I have seen same, but not sure if it is true.

What is an interesting snippet though is that a lot of US prisons are privately run with their owners heavily lobbying the members of congress and the senate to maintain the status quo. The lobbying in the US is just buying politicians and horse trading. I don't think we have reached the same state in the UK just yet although it is of course well documented that the leadership of the likes of G4S is very well connected with the movers and shakers in Westminster.

[Flyin'Dutch']

With regard to the bring back hanging argument I suspect that at the time there was “no doubt” in the public’s mind of the guilt of the Guildford Four & Birmingham Six

They were certainly found guilty to the same standard as Lee Rigby's killers.

[PeteSpencer]

With regard to the bring back hanging argument I suspect that at the time there was “no doubt” in the public’s mind of the guilt of the Guildford Four & Birmingham Six

With any judicial system depending on the man in the street to give a verdict there's bound do be collateral damage from time to time.

Nothing can be 100% certain.

Fine by me.

Peter

[PaulB]

That’s all very well until it’s you or someone that you love who becomes the collateral damage.

What ratio of Derek Bentley to Lee Rigby killers would be acceptable?