Page 1 of 463
PostPosted:Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:20 pm
Lot of talk about a 2nd Brexit vote.
...just like there was a lot of talk about a 2nd Scottish IndyRef vote.
I remember like yesterday the 2nd Irish Lisbon Treaty vote.
I have many philosophical reservations about democracy overall - but having a vote that "doesn't fit" and rejected , then a 2nd vote "that fits" and accepted....hmmm.....
Sophistry example, or "truth be told" reporting...random google search on the subject.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/11/second-brexit-referendum-ireland-lisbon-pollsI don't want yet another "Brexit is good/bad...I'm more interested in what people think about the concept of a 2nd referendum, especially given the UK's FPTP history
PostPosted:Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:33 pm
I'm not sure what a second referendum (or people's vote as it's euphemistically called) will achieve. The country is split down the middle with a significant number of both sides thinking that the other side are bonkers (or worse) for believing what they do.
I've no idea what question(s) might be asked or how they may be framed that gives a decisive answer, nor do many people seem to have shifted their position.
If there was another vote and it was a narrow remain victory, as many believe that it might be (I'm not convinced - few had shifted sides in the C4 poll a couple of weeks ago), just imagine how much more bluster we'd have to endure from BoJo, JRM & Farage! It almost doesn't bear thinking about.
PostPosted:Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:34 pm
I'm not happy about it, but we are reaching a point where it may be inevitable. We can't rewrite history but the first referendum was badly handled. It should have been set up with an advisory status clearly laid out and a requirement for a 2/3rds majority. That wasn't really possible given that it was being done to appease right wing nutters in the Tory party and marginalise UKIP.
Because the majority of voters had no more idea than the man in the moon what leaving means in practice, we now rely on MPs to deliver something that works, not easy when there's no prospect of anything better than remaining in.
So it boils down to whether people now understand the price of Brexit and are willing to pay it and no-one knows. Therefore a new referendum begins to make sense, but then we have the issue of how the question is posed...….Brexit (a) pounds x, Brexit (b) pounds y, staying in free, is the reality but whether that would get through parliament is another matter again.
Simple answers to complex problems are rarely helpful but that's what we are trying to deal with
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:04 am
I’m a remainer, but don’t think there should be a second vote.
The country voted to leave and that’s that.
On a personal note;
My Mother In Law, Staunch Brexiteer has recently changed her mind as has my Brother In Law, neither knew why they voted leave in the first place tbh, appeared to think it would be a bit of drama in their otherwise boring lives I think.
They are the only “side changers” I know.
Is there anyone who voted remain who now thinks we should leave, doubt it!
Let’s leave, Brexiteers will get their comeuppance, I have no kids, and my MIL has offered to pay our mortgage as a way of saying sorry for voting Leave when it all goes pear shaped!
I have a stash of popcorn, it’s the only way to treat the next 6 months, otherwise I’ll just shorten my life by getting very very angry and having heart failure in about 20 years time.
I will feel sorry for some Brexiteers when it goes pear shaped, but I just can’t feel I need to take any responsibility, it’s just not my fault.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:50 am
Something that has become clearer over the last 2 years is the strength that a unified EU has. After the vote they met, they agreed a response, it has been carried out for the benefit of its members.
Trouble is, that can be used by both sides as a weapon. ‘Strength in unity’ v ‘oppressed by bureaucrats’.
The remainers I know have not changed. The few leavers I know didn’t think it would be like this, but their parents had the war to reminisce about the part they played in history, why not have our own historical event?
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:02 am
The spectre of a second vote is certainly not unexpected - history has shown it's a fairly typical outcome to an initial no vote on EU matters.
As I've said in a previous post, for many people, a second vote is a mechanism for erasing the first vote-that it never happened. Of course, this is naive.... It's difficult to imagine in my lifetime at least how things could ever go back to being the same
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:12 am
Having another vote is like a computer asking you “Are you sure?” when you’re about to delete a file. It gives us as a country a collective breathing space, and a chance to confirm or step back from what is a major decision.
So I’d support having one.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:22 am
It's a democratic nonsense to think you can have 'best out of three' then 'best out of five' until we get the answer that suits a vocal and media savvy minority.
And if the remain squeaked by as might happen, then two things would happen.
1) A vocal, media savvy minority would find fault with it and justifyably 'demand' a third referendum - a request that couldn't be argued against under any reasonable grounds
2) Linked to the above the Franco German beaureaucrats would wet themselves laughing, break out the fine brandy and set about writing the new terms for our membership, the justification for the requests for a third referendum.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:26 am
There are a ton of good reasons to have a second vote, there is no cogent reason not to have one.
When the referendum was held in June 2016 few realised what the possible outcome of a Brexit could be; that is now a bit clearer.
The argument that a second vote would split the population further holds no water - the country is split as never before.
The first referendum was very poorly set up and managed; only lemmings would jump in comfort based on that.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:28 am
One thing that I wondered, are there any Brexit supporters out there that support a second referendum?
I think it would be close so another Leave vote would confirm it I should say.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:34 am
The Government really want to avoid a second referendum because it would have to offer
a) stay in
b) accept the deal on the table
c) leave without a deal
They are terrified that the answer would be c).
Given that we had the stupidity of the botched first referendum, I see no problem having another now that we know what the deal is, and given that even the Treasury say that its worse economically than staying in.
But to the majority of voters it isn't about economics, is it? Its about some ephemeral notion of nationhood or about immigration (aka racism).
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:34 am
Rob P wrote: Linked to the above the Franco German beaureaucrats would wet themselves laughing, break out the fine brandy and set about writing the new terms for our membership, the justification for the requests for a third referendum.
There is no laughter on the continental side of the Continent, shaking of heads and sucking of teeth, yes.
Disbelief at the ability to generate a mess the UK has been able to generate itself in.
In most affilliations there are times that the relation needs to be reviewed and adjusted or broken off, be it love, work, friendships and treaties. But to storm off in a hissy fit is unlikely to lead to a good result.
As long as the UK is lead by emotive party politics and red tops there will only be losers.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:36 am
No reason at all for a second referendum if one is happy to accept the result of 2016, tainted by illegality and sold on a false prospectus as it was.
Aside from the ongoing Westminster quagmire there are some legal challenges going through the courts at the moment which may or may not have an impact. They don’t seem to get much mainstream coverage though.
This whole episode has been shameful and it’s the youth of this country I feel sorry for.
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:14 am
Jim Jones wrote:The few leavers I know didn’t think it would be like this, but their parents had the war to reminisce about the part they played in history, why not have our own historical event?
We won the war and so can look back on it through rose tinted spectacles.
There aren’t going to be any winners where Brexit is concerned.
(The only winners I can think of are landlords who will be expanding their property portfolios cheaply from the repossessions. )
PostPosted:Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:40 am
johnm wrote:I'm not happy about it,
Hhhmmm,,,,hadn't noticed that , John..