Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
  • 1
  • 493
  • 494
  • 495
  • 496
  • 497
  • 569
User avatar
By kanga
#1707378
johnm wrote:I have pointed out that Corbyn ..although he has been voted leader there are numerous Labour MPs who would have a more modern take on policy ...


[as ever, nerd not partisan :wink: ]

The same mechanism with the same electorate at the same time which chose Corbyn as leader chose Tom Watson as Deputy Leader, who thereby has as much unassailable authority in his post as Corbyn does in his
johnm, Flyin'Dutch', PaulB liked this
By johnm
#1707414
Norway, Switzerland and all 28 members of the EU are independent and have chosen on the basis of enlightened self interested to sign up to a range of agreements giving various mutual benefits to their citizens.
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1707423
johnm wrote:Independence in the modern interconnected world is not a simple concept. We do not live in isolation from the rest of planet Earth. As things stand we are an independent state co-operating or in conflict with many others in a range of ways that affect our independence of action. The EU membership is just one.

The people have indeed spoken but not with one voice or anything even close to it.


John, you seem to have missed this bit

Sooty25 wrote:
doesn't matter about perceived rights or wrongs, the people were asked...


The referendum asked peoples opinions, it wasn't a quiz show with right or wrong answers!
User avatar
By PaulB
#1707430
Sooty25 wrote:The referendum asked peoples opinions, it wasn't a quiz show with right or wrong answers!



It did but that doesn’t make John’s point any less true. That said, enough politicos have said we need to honour the result to mean that we really should.

We still need to get the best deal we can, and there’s only one deal in town (despite it being pronounced dead).

I predict that it or, more likely, something *very much* like it [to the extent that it’d be hard to tell the difference] will be presented to Parliament and will be passed.

If the new PM can’t do this, then all hell will break loose!
By johnm
#1707464
That said, enough politicos have said we need to honour the result to mean that we really should.


I'd say that in the current state of UK politics that's irrelevant, as is anything else a politico says. Until they make pronouncements based on a reasoned argument that shows a benefit to the population at large nothing they say is of any consequence whatsoever. Particularly since most of them are liars.


The latest example of Kippergate is a classic; waves a kipper in the air, accuses the EU of making a daft law that was actually a UK law and then talks about restoring trust in politics, you couldn't make some of this drivel up.....
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1707465
The whole idea of a referendum whereby the outcomes are so diametrically opposed, has such a profound impact and which was so poorly prepared, designed as advisory but then promised to be implemented is stupid.

Maybe we all are responsible for accepting it as a viable option at the time where it was nothing more than an instrument to try and appease the Eurosceptics in the Tory party.

Who said that we get the politicians we deserve? We must have been bad, very very bad.
johnm liked this
User avatar
By Jim Jones
#1707497
FlarePath wrote:Would have been OK if it had gone the other way though I presume?


If it had been 52:48 the other way, the message would be that the U.K. was Ok with the status quo. It wouldn’t prevent further debate, it would allow parliament to continue to monitor the mood of the country and rethink it in the light of a stronger message, confirmed by a GE in which at least one party had thought through a clear plan to leave and had it in their manifesto. That’s representative democracy. (The closeness of the vote would be noticed, and alerted parliament that the EU was not working as intended, and that the U.K. would have to work, using its membership, to bring about change there).

What we are looking at now however is almost the complete opposite.
User avatar
By FlarePath
#1707499
One thing is sure, there wouldnt be 495 pages of utterly boring ping-pong arguments if it had gone the other way, and, that will continue to go round in circles until we are finally out and politicians get down to the real task of making it work for all us no matter what your vote was.
Bill Haddow liked this
User avatar
By Jim Jones
#1707512
FlarePath wrote:One thing is sure, there wouldnt be 495 pages of utterly boring ping-pong arguments if it had gone the other way, and, that will continue to go round in circles until we are finally out and politicians get down to the real task of making it work for all us no matter what your vote was.


I guess you’re as sure of that as you are that Brexit will be a good thing?

The ping pong would be going on, but with no artificial self -imposed deadline, and with a full assessment of a range of options, ideally within parliament, by people working for the best interest of the whole country .
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1707529
FlarePath wrote:Would have been OK if it had gone the other way though I presume?


No it would have been better as:

GDP would not have been stunted.
The Pound would not have nose-dived.
Several companies big and small would not have contemplated or actually moved out of the UK.
Companies would have carried on investing in the UK.
Politicians would have been able to carry on and do some governing instead oaf the current navel gazing competition, trying to emulate Donald Trump.
The NHS would have had a smaller shortage of staff.
The hate filled racist wackos would not have felt validated by the likes of Farage and Tice.
Jo Cox would probably still be alive
Bojo would not have been Foreign Secretary and Nazanin Zahari's sentence would not have been revised upwards as a result of his 'contribution'

The referendum also has had some positive effects

It has demonstrated without doubt that many ills levelled at the EU are clearly home grown.
That people are not clever enough to see behind some sound bites.
The political classes do not have instruments for governance in challenging times.

What is there not to like?

:D
johnm liked this
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1707539
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
FlarePath wrote:Would have been OK if it had gone the other way though I presume?


No it would have been better as:

GDP would not have been stunted. GDP
The Pound would not have nose-dived.
Several companies big and small would not have contemplated or actually moved out of the UK.
Companies would have carried on investing in the UK.
Politicians would have been able to carry on and do some governing instead oaf the current navel gazing competition, trying to emulate Donald Trump.
The NHS would have had a smaller shortage of staff.
The hate filled racist wackos would not have felt validated by the likes of Farage and Tice.
Jo Cox would probably still be alive
Bojo would not have been Foreign Secretary and Nazanin Zahari's sentence would not have been revised upwards as a result of his 'contribution'

The referendum also has had some positive effects

It has demonstrated without doubt that many ills levelled at the EU are clearly home grown.
That people are not clever enough to see behind some sound bites.
The political classes do not have instruments for governance in challenging times.

What is there not to like?

:D



In the real world, not the Remain alternative reality

GDP would not have been stunted.
UK GDP is outgrowing the EU27.

The Pound would not have nose-dived.
It was overvalued and needed to happen, very little evidence that Brexit was a cause.

Several companies big and small would not have contemplated or actually moved out of the UK.
Companies move in and out all the time.

Companies would have carried on investing in the UK.
FDI is at record levels.

Politicians would have been able to carry on and do some governing instead oaf the current navel gazing competition, trying to emulate Donald Trump.
Subjective and unsubstantiated personal opinion.

The NHS would have had a smaller shortage of staff.
Subjective and unsubstantiated personal opinion.

The hate filled racist wackos would not have felt validated by the likes of Farage and Tice.
Subjective and unsubstantiated personal opinion.

Jo Cox would probably still be alive
Subjective and unsubstantiated personal opinion.

Bojo would not have been Foreign Secretary and Nazanin Zahari's sentence would not have been revised upwards as a result of his 'contribution'
Subjective and unsubstantiated personal opinion.

:)
By Colonel Panic
#1707543
FD, not sure which planet you are on these days, or perhaps it is the news outlets that you frequent, but I don't recognise much of what you claim is the case back here in Blighty.

But maybe I am just living in a bubble of delusion ...
By spaughty
#1707547
eltonioni wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
FlarePath wrote:Would have been OK if it had gone the other way though I presume?


No it would have been better as:

.....

:D



In the real world, not the Remain alternative reality

GDP would not have been stunted.
UK GDP is outgrowing the EU27.

The Pound would not have nose-dived.
It was overvalued and needed to happen, very little evidence that Brexit was a cause.

Several companies big and small would not have contemplated or actually moved out of the UK.
Companies move in and out all the time.

Companies would have carried on investing in the UK.
FDI is at record levels.

...

:)


Just picking up on a few points:

The issue is not how our GDP compares with the EU, but how it compares with what it would have been in the absence of Brexit. As even the actual GDP measures are revised significantly for years after publication, and the referendum was recent, and we can't measure what the GDP figures would have been, I think it is hard to draw a conclusion. Though it is hard to imagine how Brexit uncertainty might actually encourage investment.

The statement that: "[The Pound] was overvalued and needed to happen, very little evidence that Brexit was a cause." truly is "Subjective and unsubstantiated personal opinion" :-)
Looking at this graph you might conclude that nothing much happened to Sterling after the big dip in 1984 except for some Thatcherite exuberance and some misplaced pre-2008 euphoria. Until Brexit, of course...

Finally, re FDI: I think you can trace most of the "record FDI" quotes to the recent EY FDI Attractiveness Survey. Behind their headline you can find this summary which isn't terribly positive about Brexit. You can download their whole report from that page, but I've had enough already.

See you all in another hundred pages or so :-)
  • 1
  • 493
  • 494
  • 495
  • 496
  • 497
  • 569