Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

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By johnm
#1695277
How do we manage the profligacy and mismanagement here then? Don't tell me "the ballot box" as neither of the two main parties appear to be as much use as a chocolate kettle. The amount we spend per head on the EU would just about buy you a Netflix subscription and is of rather more use IMHO.

To put it further into perspective

UK's net contribution to EU £9bn

Chris Grayling squander account £2.7bn so far
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By PaulB
#1695292
treborsnave wrote:All stuff we can easily do ourselves, through our own elected parliament.


... but our Government chose not to, despite them being good and worthwhile things.

oh, and pssst .... I haven't paid roaming charges since about 2005, at least 9 years before the EU were able to legislate against it.


Out of interest, which mobile company had no roaming (call/text/data) charges in 2005?

... and while we’re, I’ll ask again.... can anyone name a specific law that has been forced on us despite our own elected MEPs voting against it?
By malcolmfrost
#1695328
Maybe they do like:

No roaming charges
Consumer protection for goods and services across the continent
Loco aeroplane travel anywhere in Europe with compensation for delays etc
Unlimited purchases to bring home from European trips
EHIC
SEPA bank transfers
limited credit card charges
Data privacy and protection
Workers rights
Clean food and beaches

and that is the first time I’ve seen anyone put that lot down! Perhaps if Remain had made all of those positives rather than all the doom and plagues they promised we might not be where we are now......
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1695338
malcolmfrost wrote:and that is the first time I’ve seen anyone put that lot down! Perhaps if Remain had made all of those positives rather than all the doom and plagues they promised we might not be where we are now......


I doubt it, cause all the positive stuff doesn't compensate for the perceived ills and loss of control.

More evidence does nothing to convince those who have abandoned trust in science.

Brexit is a religion based on beliefs it has nothing to do with sense or logic.
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By johnm
#1695343
In fairness I think the Remain campaign got distracted by a vain attempt to refute a deluge of nonsense assertions with fact.
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By Cns416
#1695344
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
malcolmfrost wrote:Brexit is a religion based on beliefs it has nothing to do with sense or logic.


Its based on having been screwed over by the EU over many years working.
We/my employer did business all over the world - except the EU where everything was put in our way to obstruct us: to the extent that we did not bother anymore even trying we knew that even if we put in bids below cost price for fun (and we did!) there was no way we would ever get an order.

The latest Eu directive arises out of a farm accident in Slovenia - what has this got to do with the UK you ask? - beats me
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-4054528/Ride-lawnmowers-soon-required-motor-insurance-new-EU-directive.html
Anyway the proposals are now that all mechanically propelled people carrying vehicles much be insured at all times no matter where they are.
So that will put an end to the UK's SORN principle of laid up uninsured vehicles and even ride on lawn mowers in your own garden will have to have motor insurance.
Goodness knows what is going to happen to classic car collections in museums....either they get exemptions or maybe they all get their engines ripped out so they are no longer mechanically propelled
Well we are leaving so we can now ignore any EU directives
But
You have to ask yourself - why do they do it?
Why?
Why does the EU continually seek to Pss people off with this rubbish.

Why is it that we though our taxes are in effect paying Jaguar Landrover to take up EU sponsored state aid to move the factory out of the UK and into to Slovakia.
Its all a bit like paying your competitor money to take business from you
Is not state aid illegal you ask? - well not in this case apparently - all approved by the EU which makes up its own rules.

Is anything happening following the EU Ombudsman's scathing report about the appointment of Mr Selmayr as deputy Secretary without any due process whatsoever of any form.
Of course not - the commission decided to ignore the report.

The EU is in my opinion more bent than the average coat hanger
By malcolmfrost
#1695349
johnm wrote:In fairness I think the Remain campaign got distracted by a vain attempt to refute a deluge of nonsense assertions with fact.

The trouble was that IIRC the Remain campaign seemed to be relentless doom and gloom, most of which have not transpired yet. The swing voters may well have been more swayed by the potential loss of some of the benefits (which are tangible as I use them myself) if they had been told about them in a positive way.
The true followers of Brexit are probably the 39% who now are indicating for the Brexit party. They wouldn't have taken any notice.
By malcolmfrost
#1695350
Cns416 wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
malcolmfrost wrote:Brexit is a religion based on beliefs it has nothing to do with sense or logic.


Its based on having been screwed over by the EU over many years working.
We/my employer did business all over the world - except the EU where everything was put in our way to obstruct us: to the extent that we did not bother anymore even trying we knew that even if we put in bids below cost price for fun (and we did!) there was no way we would ever get an order.

The latest Eu directive arises out of a farm accident in Slovenia - what has this got to do with the UK you ask? - beats me
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-4054528/Ride-lawnmowers-soon-required-motor-insurance-new-EU-directive.html
Anyway the proposals are now that all mechanically propelled people carrying vehicles much be insured at all times no matter where they are.
So that will put an end to the UK's SORN principle of laid up uninsured vehicles and even ride on lawn mowers in your own garden will have to have motor insurance.
Goodness knows what is going to happen to classic car collections in museums....either they get exemptions or maybe they all get their engines ripped out so they are no longer mechanically propelled
Well we are leaving so we can now ignore any EU directives
But
You have to ask yourself - why do they do it?
Why?
Why does the EU continually seek to Pss people off with this rubbish.

Why is it that we though our taxes are in effect paying Jaguar Landrover to take up EU sponsored state aid to move the factory out of the UK and into to Slovakia.
Its all a bit like paying your competitor money to take business from you
Is not state aid illegal you ask? - well not in this case apparently - all approved by the EU which makes up its own rules.

Is anything happening following the EU Ombudsman's scathing report about the appointment of Mr Selmayr as deputy Secretary without any due process whatsoever of any form.
Of course not - the commission decided to ignore the report.

The EU is in my opinion more bent than the average coat hanger

Incidentally is there a reason it appears I wrote "Brexit is a religion...." when I actually wrote no such thing!
By johnm
#1695351
The EU is not without problems as we all know, but the insurance discussion is a consultation, the U.K. would consult along with others and the proposals may go forward they may not. If they do I have no doubt that NFU mutual will set up a policy ;-)

The rest of the tirade I can’t comment on as I don’t have any knowledge. Except that J LR are one of many either replacing U.K. plants with EU plants or adding an EU presence and so splitting investment.
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By eltonioni
#1695354
malcolmfrost wrote:
Maybe they do like:

No roaming charges
Consumer protection for goods and services across the continent
Loco aeroplane travel anywhere in Europe with compensation for delays etc
Unlimited purchases to bring home from European trips
EHIC
SEPA bank transfers
limited credit card charges
Data privacy and protection
Workers rights
Clean food and beaches

and that is the first time I’ve seen anyone put that lot down! Perhaps if Remain had made all of those positives rather than all the doom and plagues they promised we might not be where we are now......


But as said above, the EU isn't needed for any of that. It's only come from the EU because the UK government devolved decision making on those issues, not because the EU has magical powers. The UK is quite capable of making laws without the EU's involvement.

Anyway, no matter how useless TM might be, at least there's a bunch of worse incompetents with the CUKs. Can you spot it? :lol:

Image
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By Newfy
#1695400
eltonioni wrote:Galton's Ox is kicking hard. ;) Tomorrow we vote!


You keep mentioning Galton’s Ox as support for a “no deal” Hard Brexit. This is a misapplication of the concept. If anything, Galton’s Ox supports an argument for a very soft Brexit.

Galton’s Ox is about averages, not winner take all. It comes from an experiment where a group of attendees at a county fair were asked to guess the weight of an ox. The average of the guesses was closer to the actual weight than any of the closest individual guesses.

The Brexit vote was close: 52-48%. The range of views of remain voters likely ran from those “committed federalists” who would like to see even closer union among the members states, to those who prefer the status quo, to those who believe the UK should stay in the EU but work with other member states to seek reform, just as the range of leave views likely ran from those who believe we should leave the political structures, but remain in EFTA, like Norway, to those who believe we should have a permanent customs union to those who want a no deal WTO Brexit. The average does not result in that last extreme, but would be closer to a very soft Brexit.

To claim Galton’s Ox indicates a no deal Brexit is the answer would be tantamount to saying that, although the average of guesses of the weight of that ox is 2080 lbs., we must declare is weights 4000 lbs because 2080 is bigger than 2000, and some people guessed 4000. That’s not how the ox works.
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By ThePipster
#1695406
With nearly 400 pages of discussion and opinion I am still left with the most important question of all unanswered.....Where does the UK go from here?

I am not really interested in the rights or wrongs of either side of the brexit debate but I simply want to know how Britain is to move on from the current situation?

How much money needs to be spent on training in U.K. Industry and what areas need to be prioritised?

How do we rebalance our trade between services ( possibly nebulous ) and goods with the rest of the world?

How do we support our nation without buying from or needing to sell to those nations / regimes that do not share our same Marquis of Queensbury rules of fair play?

How do we change our energy and resource usage to give future generations a chance to enjoy the same privileges we have enjoyed?

How do we run a sensible and proportionate health service that matches the real needs of the population it serves?

Answer these questions first and the rest should fall into place.....

Britain is a great place to live but we need to all understand the reasons why it is so great!!

Pipster

P.S. How do we stop greedy f****rs building on perfectly good airfields!!!!
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By eltonioni
#1695422
Newfy wrote:
eltonioni wrote:Galton's Ox is kicking hard. ;) Tomorrow we vote!


You keep mentioning Galton’s Ox as support for a “no deal” Hard Brexit. This is a misapplication of the concept. If anything, Galton’s Ox supports an argument for a very soft Brexit.

Galton’s Ox is about averages, not winner take all. It comes from an experiment where a group of attendees at a county fair were asked to guess the weight of an ox. The average of the guesses was closer to the actual weight than any of the closest individual guesses.

The Brexit vote was close: 52-48%. The range of views of remain voters likely ran from those “committed federalists” who would like to see even closer union among the members states, to those who prefer the status quo, to those who believe the UK should stay in the EU but work with other member states to seek reform, just as the range of leave views likely ran from those who believe we should leave the political structures, but remain in EFTA, like Norway, to those who believe we should have a permanent customs union to those who want a no deal WTO Brexit. The average does not result in that last extreme, but would be closer to a very soft Brexit.

To claim Galton’s Ox indicates a no deal Brexit is the answer would be tantamount to saying that, although the average of guesses of the weight of that ox is 2080 lbs., we must declare is weights 4000 lbs because 2080 is bigger than 2000, and some people guessed 4000. That’s not how the ox works.

No I don't, haven't ever, wouldn't, don't need to, it's a non sequitur with an inbuilt contradiction. I suppose that makes the rest of the post a "misapplication". :)

What is a little more interesting is this badly thought out idea that 52/48 is "close". It's not even close mathematically, never mind numerically. "48" and "52" are merely numbers that are "close" to each other in a count to "100", in that;
0 = they
48 = are
52 = not
100 = close
is the same as "almost adjacent", or that 1,269,501 people standing in a small field would be quite "close" to each other.

I appreciate that you've not contributed much to this rather extensive navel gazing thread, but if you had you'd probably be aware that I am a tub-thumper for democracy, not Brexit especially. One is a just consequence of the other, and that's why it has to happen. There is no losers outcome that should prevent the UK leaving the EU institutions as per the promises made to every household in the country by HMG, anything else is up for grabs. There is no democratic mandate for anything else.

Once you've accepted the Referendum outcome it all gets a lot easier. Everyone should try it, and be perhaps be suspicious of the motives of those who won't - they usually turn out to be self interests. :)

Do you see how Galton's Ox works now?
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