Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

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By johnm
#1694134
eltonioni wrote:@johnm they are home grown problems because (in part) of EU membership. Don't outsource responsibility to a distant body and expect people of quality and integrity to be falling over themselves to be responsible for domestic politics.

(Did I ever mention Galton's Ox? Or Parkinson's Law? ;) )


There you go again, the EU isn't a distant third party we're an integral part of it. Therefore we work with others on designing ways of discharging responsibilites of common interest using a consistent approach and then we come home and implement. It is however telling that Brexiters all use language that suggests the EU is a third party controlling us, it ain't and never has been.


You can mention Galton's Ox, Parkinsons Law, the Peter Principle or the mythical man month all you like, in some cases they can be useful in encouraging critical insight, but the place to be looking is Westminster not Brussels.
By felixflyer
#1694136
I know what the UK was like before the EU, because I was there and I can tell you it wasn't great.


The world has moved on a lot since then. Don't you think the younger generation should have the opportunity to try life outside the EU? I thought it was leavers who were supposed to be ignoring the youth vote.

My observation is that Brexit is to a large extent irrelevant except that we will need to replace those agreements and systems that are predicated on us being an EU state and that involves a lot of unnecessary work and that's the main reason I'm against it. It's taking a lot of time and effort from a great many people that could be much better used.


If that's the case then your endless posts for remaining seem a little over the top. If we are likely to see no difference and it's all about giving civil servants unnecessary paperwork then I would suggest we need to get on with leaving asap.

The damage being done to our democratic system and the amount of people being ignored and promising never to vote again is a very large price to pay for a bit of extra unnecessary work.
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By eltonioni
#1694139
johnm wrote:
eltonioni wrote:@johnm they are home grown problems because (in part) of EU membership. Don't outsource responsibility to a distant body and expect people of quality and integrity to be falling over themselves to be responsible for domestic politics.

(Did I ever mention Galton's Ox? Or Parkinson's Law? ;) )


There you go again, the EU isn't a distant third party we're an integral part of it. Therefore we work with others on designing ways of discharging responsibilites of common interest using a consistent approach and then we come home and implement. It is however telling that Brexiters all use language that suggests the EU is a third party controlling us, it ain't and never has been.


You can mention Galton's Ox, Parkinsons Law, the Peter Principle or the mythical man month all you like, in some cases they can be useful in encouraging critical insight, but the place to be looking is Westminster not Brussels.

^^ you're still not listening, even though it's being shouted out really, really loudly. ;) In fairness, you are one of very many with presumably selective deafness, rather than vested interests.
By johnm
#1694142
Don't you think the younger generation should have the opportunity to try life outside the EU?


If someone could make a coherent case for that then yes, but no-one has. The EU places no constraints on the young that I can see and my children and their friends are living and working in the EU and elsewhere. The FoM within the EU makes it very straightforward, but it's not excessively difficult for them to go elsewhere as well. Many overtly describe themselves as citizens of the world and good for them. Leaving the EU won't add anything to their opportunities, but will rob them of some rights.


Brexit has certainly showed up our representative democracy to be in a right old mess full of charlatans and crooks and self serving airheads and that's not the fault of the EU either.
By johnm
#1694143
@eltonioni I'm hearing a lot of hysterical shouting saying "LEAVE! LEAVE!" is that what you mean??

If I then ask Why? How? it all goes a lot quieter :roll:
By felixflyer
#1694144
If someone could make a coherent case for that then yes, but no-one has.


The main case for leaving is that the majority voted to do so and we live in a democratic society. That really is all that matters.
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By eltonioni
#1694146
johnm wrote:@eltonioni I'm hearing a lot of hysterical shouting saying "LEAVE! LEAVE!" is that what you mean??

If I then ask Why? How? it all goes a lot quieter :roll:

How? Why didn't you ask earlier‽‽‽ I think you probably did, but you obviously weren't listening to the very many replies.

Stage 1, stop being hysterical about leaving.
Stage 2, accept the vote to leave.
Stage 3, set a fixed date to leave.
Stage 4, discuss the future relationship of all parties like grown ups, on behalf of citizens.
Stage 5, put it into a treaty.
Stage 6, leave.
Stage 7, wonder what all the fuss was about.

Is it the bit about acting like grown ups that's the problem? I can outline the other way too if you like. :D
By johnm
#1694165
@eltonioni Oh I see...…


Stage 1 accept the vote, OK if we must but it's a bit daft.

Stage 2 We'd better have a plan then

Stage 3 The plan needs to cover the withdrawal agreement and the outline of the future relationship as set out in Article 50

Stage 4 Plan produced and executed so we have a withdrawal agreement and a political declaration.

Stage 5 What do you mean you don't like the agreement and political declaration????

Stage 6 ??????????

Frankly had we been able to follow your plan, as I've said many times, a sensible damage limitation outcome would have been OK. The fundamental problems have all been internecine strife within the two main parties who appear to have no interest in the welfare of population at large. That in turn has allowed some very unpleasant people a platform for some foul calumnies that a worrying number of folk seem prepared to subscribe to
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By eltonioni
#1694169
The fault is on all sides, in particular the EU officials and politicians briefed with not to accept the decision. They were wrong then and they are wrong now, and will have to live with Nigel Farage in charge of 5% of the EU's MEP's because the the citizens of the UK (and the EU it seems) know what the crack is now.

It's the Streisand Effect if you like - don't draw attention to something you want to keep hidden.
By johnm
#1694174
, in particular the EU officials and politicians briefed with not to accept the decision


Do you have a reference for that, I've heard it before but haven't been able to find any credible evidence.

There is lots of evidence they were disappointed to put it mildly and hoped there might be a way to engineer a mind change but I've seen nothing that suggests they were actively seeking to scupper an agreement.

There is quite a lot of material ( including a documentary) that shows the UK negotiators in a less than flattering light, but they richly deserved it!
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By PaulB
#1694192
There is a plan, but the people who *really* want to leave don't think that it's putting enough space between us and the EU. However, they don't have a better plan of their own.

As will be usual (and has been throughout history) the rich will be largely OK (with some actually benefitting) and it's the poor that will lose out.

Getting political for a minute, is it not really odd that a (new in this case) political party doesn't have to declare where its funds are coming from until a month after the vote? Surely transparency would demand that we understand the funding of those that would like to rule over us?
By johnm
#1694198
Getting political for a minute, is it not really odd that a (new in this case) political party doesn't have to declare where its funds are coming from until a month after the vote? Surely transparency would demand that we understand the funding of those that would like to rule over us?


In normal cases it's a requirement to make a return to show all the funds spent on the campaign and a candidate can be disqualified and removed in extreme cases if the rules are broken.

The donors to Brexit are beginning to appear on the Electoral commission website and a key player is a financier called Jeremy Hosking
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By PaulB
#1694200
felixflyer wrote:If you're talking about the Brexit party then people are queuing up to pay them £25 joining fee. Over 100,000 so far.


Nigel costs more than that to run.....
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