Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

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By johnm
#1693851
Who said anything about mass migration? FoM has conditions and nobody in their right mind is going to recruit immigrants if they can hire someone from down the road.

The fact is that Brits won’t move 20 miles to get a job picking Strawberries but Romanians will travel across a continent!

We need to sort out training and work ethic amongst our own folk but even then we’ll still see immigrants as we have throughout history.

So far after three years of debate we’ve yet to see an EU issue that isn’t a consequence of a home grown problem. It’s not them, it’s us :roll:
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By felixflyer
#1693858
nobody in their right mind is going to recruit immigrants if they can hire someone from down the road.


It's about standards of living and pay rates. A comment was made that immigration does not effect anybodies standard of living. The problem is there is a queue of people from abroad willing to work for rates that the person down the road cannot afford to live on. I see this every day in construction with rates being held down by an unending supply of cheaper labour. Lower rates mean a lower standard of living. Likewise increasing population without also increasing services and infrastructure also decreases it.

The fact is that Brits won’t move 20 miles to get a job picking Strawberries but Romanians will travel across a continent!


You previously mentioned using immigrants as scapegoats but you are doing so with comments about lazy British workers.

The Brits on my site in Central London are from all over the UK and travel back every weekend. There are also Brits working worldwide. The issue you mention is more to do with low paid & low skilled repetitive work compared to the benefits available for sitting at home and is a different issue.

The fact remains that controlled immigration enables us to have exactly the policy we have now if it is so good but also gives us the power to restrict it if we need to.
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By johnm
#1693864
The fact remains that controlled immigration enables us to have exactly the policy we have now if it is so good but also gives us the power to restrict it if we need to.


The fact is that both immigration and FoM can be controlled and discussions about the Living Wage and minimum wage levels continue.

So I say again, it's not an EU or even a Filipino or Bangladeshi issue, it's a home grown one.
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By PaulB
#1693929
If migrants are taking all the jobs and reducing salaries, then presumably there will be an increase in indigenous unemployment. Surely the anti-immigration groups would have been very quick to point that out had it been the case.

Also, where is the evidence that salaries have reduced due to migrant workers?
By johnm
#1694049
eltonioni wrote:It's as if 48% have not been listening for the last 3 years, despite the message given.


They’ve tried to listen but the signal to noise ratio is bloody awful :lol:
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By eltonioni
#1694056
johnm wrote:
eltonioni wrote:It's as if 48% have not been listening for the last 3 years, despite the message given.


They’ve tried to listen



Nah.
By johnm
#1694074
Sorry we are all listening and we heard the message "Leave!" . Because David C decided to make an advisory referendum decisive, the opportunity to say "Don't be daft!" was missed, so we're now waiting for coherent answers to the two basic follow up questions "Why ?" and "How?"

Thus far we've heard a lot of noise but no useful practical proposals which isn't too surprising given the character of the public front men for the movement.

In the meantime a great deal of damage limitation work is being undertaken, quite a lot of it by people who don't want to leave, so that a workable outcome might be managed whatever the charlatans in Westminster come up with.

So yes we are listening and doing what we can, but no-one has yet convinced us that there is any greater merit in Brexit than Remain, if anything the deeper we look the more attractive Remain becomes.
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By Nomad63
#1694105
We?, did you become the representative speaker for some group John?
I'm sure there are a significant group of people in full agreement with your stance but it would be great to know how many, perhaps the upcoming MEP elections could be used as some sort of indicator?.

I have to agree with Tony, a lot of people simply aren't listening
By johnm
#1694108
I have to agree with Tony, a lot of people simply aren't listening


In fairness that can't be denied and applies to both sides of the debate. But I know a good many people who have looked carefully at both sides of the argument in a number of ways. Some using corporate strategic planning and risk management tools.

The most worrying aspect for me is the number of proven liars and charlatans in the public front line of the debate and the apparent high level of support they're getting.
By johnm
#1694116
On the face of it seems that the Farage tribe is still following their leader and disaffected right wing Tories have joined them. What an awful commentary on our politics when so many follow a proven charlatan.
By felixflyer
#1694122
If migrants are taking all the jobs and reducing salaries, then presumably there will be an increase in indigenous unemployment. Surely the anti-immigration groups would have been very quick to point that out had it been the case.


It's not really as simple as that. Many of the jobs people come to the UK to do would be filled by apprentices and newly trained staff. Whether it's brickies, welders or nurses there are not enough apprenticeships or training schemes as it's easier to just employ foreign workers than train up people from scratch.

It isn't just about jobs either, it is simply about high levels of population and the fact it's so unsustainable which has an adverse effect on so many areas of life. Restricting our high levels of immigration is the quickest and most sensible way of stopping this before it costs us in terms of money and living standards. Many countries around the world get this and do just that.

Also, where is the evidence that salaries have reduced due to migrant workers?


Go to any building site and ask about rates, see why many labour suppliers in a host of industries can advertise a job at low rates and get a flood of applicants. As said earlier it's just supply & demand.

Sorry we are all listening and we heard the message "Leave!" . Because David C decided to make an advisory referendum decisive, the opportunity to say "Don't be daft!" was missed,


When you say Cameron should not have given us the right to vote on EU membership you are effectively saying the majority that chose leave should not have been allowed a say in the first place. I think this sums up the attitude of many remainers quite well.

So yes we are listening and doing what we can, but no-one has yet convinced us that there is any greater merit in Brexit than Remain,


This really does need to stop. It is obvious to all that we cannot know the outcome of Brexit until we leave and have had a real go at making it work. It should not be down to the majority vote to convince the minority in order to even begin. Likewise we should not be letting people who have been against Brexit from the start and only want to thwart the whole idea have control.

We have had years of EU membership, we know what that looks like. Lets now try and make a real go of life outside the UK and then in years to come who knows, we might see another referendum. At least if we do both sides will have real data and know what life in & out is like.
By johnm
#1694127
We have had years of EU membership, we know what that looks like. Lets now try and make a real go of life outside the UK and then in years to come who knows, we might see another referendum. At least if we do both sides will have real data and know what life in & out is like.


I know what the UK was like before the EU, because I was there and I can tell you it wasn't great.

My observation is that Brexit is to a large extent irrelevant except that we will need to replace those agreements and systems that are predicated on us being an EU state and that involves a lot of unnecessary work and that's the main reason I'm against it. It's taking a lot of time and effort from a great many people that could be much better used.

The reason I say this is because I have observed that almost all of the issues and problems faced in the UK are not inflicted as a result of EU membership, they are home grown. There are now so many myths and so much folklore abroad in the UK in respect of the EU that myth busting web sites are struggling to cope.
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By eltonioni
#1694129
@johnm they are home grown problems because (in part) of EU membership. Don't outsource responsibility to a distant body and expect people of quality and integrity to be falling over themselves to be responsible for domestic politics.

(Did I ever mention Galton's Ox? Or Parkinson's Law? ;) )
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