Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

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By Nomad63
#1692542
PaulB wrote:
Nomad63 wrote:The mechanism by which we leave was decided years ago.....


Would that be the easiest deal in history because we hold all the cards (or some similar wording)?


No that would be article 50, thats the mechanism.
Deals are apart from that mechanism, the politicos have of course got the whole process **** backwards on purpose, but I thought you knew that
By Nomad63
#1692545
"No evidence that foreign workers are competing with UK workers for jobs"

What?, if Foreign workers are getting any UK jobs then simple logic says they are competing in the UK market
For what you are saying to be true, then every Foreign worker in the UK is doing a job that no UK resident has applied for.
I don't believe that for one second
By johnm
#1692553
Nomad63 wrote:"No evidence that foreign workers are competing with UK workers for jobs"


For what you are saying to be true, then every Foreign worker in the UK is doing a job that no UK resident has applied for.
I don't believe that for one second


You’d be wrong, we have very high levels of employment and struggle to fill jobs in agriculture health and social care and elsewhere without immigrants. It’s not necessarily a good thing some of it is a consequence of our productivity being poor.

On your article 50 comment

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.


My bold shows why there is a political declaration alongside the withdrawal agreement.
PaulB liked this
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By PaulB
#1692564
Off at a slight tangent, what’s actually wrong with importing labour? I guess you might say that we should only import labour that we can’t produce ourselves.....

....we produce cars, but still choose to import loads from all over the world rather than supporting British factories and jobs for British workers. Why should labour be any different?

Just curious as to people’s views.
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By Genghis the Engineer
#1692573
Nothing at all, if we have a net neutral to beneficial flow of value across the border, AND our own unemployment is a manageably low (by which I mean that the number of people seeking work, and number of vacancies are similar with an approximate skills match)

But if we are spending net money, or employing a significant number of non-nationals in jobs that are reasonably done by unemployed Brits (and it's the net that matters, not any individual transaction), we have a problematic deficit.

(If we have a skills, but not a numbers or pounds mismatch, that is also a problem, but a different one).

G
User avatar
By PaulB
#1692577
Genghis the Engineer wrote:But if we are spending net money, or employing a significant number of non-nationals in jobs that are reasonably done by unemployed Brits (and it's the net that matters, not any individual transaction), we have a problematic deficit.


But we are quite willing to import from other counties, goods which could easily be manufactured here in the UK. In fact we have done so in the past to the detriment of our own workforce, economics being deemed more important. Why is labour any different? We are quite willing to pay foreign labour to make something that we then import (even if that makes some our own labour force jobless), but appear less willing to let those workers come here and work in British factories.

(I’m not saying I agree with the above, necessarily, but trying to tease out a debate...)
User avatar
By Genghis the Engineer
#1692582
On net, it's not different.

In individual cases, it's more complex as, for example, we are unlikely to be ever to make, say, tea-towels at anything like the price per unit, including shipping, that other countries can. Buying those tea-towels is not a problem. Buying millions of those tea-towels without some other part of the British economy compensating with similar or greater value exports (and no naughty double accounting) is a problem.

G
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1692605
Nomad63 wrote:"No evidence that foreign workers are competing with UK workers for jobs"

What?, if Foreign workers are getting any UK jobs then simple logic says they are competing in the UK market
For what you are saying to be true, then every Foreign worker in the UK is doing a job that no UK resident has applied for.
I don't believe that for one second


Current UK unemployment rate is 3.9% which actually means that economic growth is starting to get impacted by lack of work force.

Much emphasis is put by the media on workers from Eastern Europe on low paid jobs in agriculture, horticulture, gastronomy, hostelry but a lot of EU workers are working in highly skilled jobs were there are not enough British folks trained (doctors/nurses/industrial engineers, culinary chefs etc etc)

The latter is nothing new. When I applied for an NHS job 25 years ago there were 5 applicants for 12 jobs.

3 UK trained junior doctors and 2 from the Netherlands.

7 unfilled vacancies - they were never filled.

There are currently some 15000 doctor vacancies across the UK and 40000 for nurses.

Curry houses and GP practices are closing because there are not enough people to do the work. JLR opened up facilities in the Eastern Europe rather than move workforce to the UK.

Much of the red top and brexiteer's ire is directed at immigrants and the EU, it might be more useful to direct it to HMG for miss managing the essentials which have lead to the requirements to import work force.
By johnm
#1692615
Don't forget productivity, ours is poor, therefore we need more workers to produce the output. None of this has anything to do with the EU or wider immigration per se. It's all about how the government allows and even encourages unrestrained foreign investment and fails to encourage innovation and efficiency.

We have become a penny wise pound foolish country and that's a domestic issue and won't change after Brexit, in fact there are suggestions that Brexit is being backed by those who would profit from it getting worse :-(
By treborsnave
#1692638
johnm wrote:Some of the best work on migration is done at Oxford. This article covers the impact note there’s no distinction between EU and the rest and we know that as EU migration has reduced migration from elsewhere has increased but the skills mix has not been consistent.


But again, follow the money. Most of, if not all of the funneling of funds is coming from quangos/charities who take a disinctly europhilic view on the world: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/about/funders/

If it looks like a duck etc.
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1692645
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:No evidence that foreign workers are competing with UK workers for jobs

Right there. Bullseye. Millions of votes for Brexit in a nutshell and still not getting it.

I'm absolutely not picking at you FD, but the middle class hubris that you and I are fortunate enough to enjoy is why we are where we are. Orwell nailed it in the second half of The Road To Wigan Pier much better I than could dream of, if you're not familiar and have a few spare hours TRTWP is always worth a read to tune up the empathy settings, even for a GP serving the local council estate. The elitist patriarchal socialism of the EU has always been the problem not the answer.
By JoeC
#1692647
treborsnave wrote:If it looks like a duck etc.


Yes, those bastards at the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, Esmee Fairbairn Foundation and Diana Memorial Foundation :roll: You just can't trust these organisations with their utter transparency, clear reporting and publicly stated aims.

Try and find the same level of transparency from Nigel Farage, Aaron Banks or Murdoch who have funded the brexit hatred. You wont. You wont find any transparency at all.

I know who I would rather align myself with.
User avatar
By PaulB
#1692650
treborsnave wrote:But again, follow the money. Most of, if not all of the funneling of funds is coming from quangos/charities who take a disinctly europhilic view on the world: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/about/funders/

If it looks like a duck etc.


where's the evidence that those organisations are less than impartial?
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