Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 462
By Mike Tango
#1655583
Brexit happening will almost certainly lead to another Scottish independence vote, in which case I’d expect the Nationalists to win. A degree of irony there that the mainstream U.K. Unionist party will have been directly responsible for the break up of the Union.

Though I would be painfully saddened if it transpires this way the one bright side would be that, if an independent Scotland then seeks to rejoin the EU, my Scottish roots and ultimately passport would allow me to regain the European rights and privileges that may shortly be removed.

This isn’t just brexit, it will almost certainly lead to the end of the Untied Kingdom.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1655584
Sooty25 wrote:
johnm wrote:I fear @OCB is misguided, the EU is very young and dealing with immensely complex problems and so it isn't surprising that there are nonsenses driven by messy compromises.



And there lies half of the problems,

It has grown far too fast
It is attempting to cover far too many subjects
It has been allowed to take too much control

Had it remained faithful to its roots, it wouldn't be hated by so many.


Too fast - I think that is a reasonable point to make; when the EU started there was nobody who could have reasonably foreseen the changes in Europe which occured in the late 80s early 90s which led to there being a large number of candidates who wanted to join and the willingness from the rest of Europe to give them shelter from the previous Russian influence.

Might be good to remember it was the UK who chose not to implement a stop on free movement of labour in relation to these countries;

Too many subjects - only those agreed by treaty and the vast majority of the things that really matter in daily life are subject to EU regulations; the vast majority of the EU rules are only there to ensure there is a level playing field.

The areas over which the EU has no say are:

Taxation
Judicial System
Education
Policing
Health Care
Domestic Infrastructure
etc.

There are of course people who will point to the regulations about curvedness of bananas - if that is something that exercises people then there is nothing that can be done for them.

Too much control - not only do individual countries have their input at the various levels in the EU, over and above that the UK has had their veto - something not granted to the other members, and a rebate, again something not granted to the others.

The informed observer may conclude that the UK has probably had a better deal than many others....
By johnm
#1655585
@Sooty25 I can't imagine why anyone would hate the EU :shock:

I can understand frustration, I can understand disagreement, both of which feature in my assessment of the UK govt and the EU, but hatred :shock:

As to youth we have an institution that has developed over 73 years more or less from scratch, in a context where bureaucratic and democratic systems were relatively well understood. By comparison we have we have a UK democracy that more or less stabilised 90 years ago after 1000 years of evolution, but is still being modified.

Neither are exactly problem free are they?

There are of course people who will point to the regulations about curvedness of bananas - if that is something that exercises people then there is nothing that can be done for them.


Which is of course one of the many UK inspired myths that have fed the views that some in the UK hold about the EU.
karlbown, Smaragd liked this
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1655624
johnm wrote:@Sooty25 I can't imagine why anyone would hate the EU :shock:


that is one of your problems John, you completely fail to accept or understand other peoples opinions, you constantly believe and insist you are the only person who is right. That repeats in every single thread on here that ends up discussing Brexit. "I'm right, you are wrong"

Just stop for one minute and think "what if you are wrong?"

The biggest frustration in my view, is the complete and utter balls up, the elected have made of running our country over the last 2 years. 2 years of infighting rather than getting on and doing the job the majority of those that bothered to vote asked them to do. I'd charge the lot with treason!
mick w liked this
User avatar
By lobstaboy
#1655625
Mike Tango wrote:This isn’t just brexit, it will almost certainly lead to the end of the Untied Kingdom.


What a brilliantly appropriate typo. The UK is indeed about to unravel. The Untied Kingdom is what we will be left with. NI being still part of the EU, Scotland independent, Wales will probably want to go too...
Mike Tango, Flyin'Dutch', PaulB and 2 others liked this
By riverrock
#1655628
Sooty25 wrote:The biggest frustration in my view, is the complete and utter balls up, the elected have made of running our country over the last 2 years.

Its been a lot longer than 2 years. Almost all of the ills blamed on the EU during the debate were within the remit of the UK Parliament. Almost all recent positives we've had from politicians in the last few years have have been initiated from the EU. Would they have happened anyway (standing up to big business; airline compensation; environmental standards; employment rights etc)? No way to tell, but they were initiated in the EU.

@Sooty25 - what if you're wrong? I also struggle to see why people hate the EU.
johnm, Flyin'Dutch', Dusty_B liked this
By johnm
#1655643
@Sooty25
Just stop for one minute and think "what if you are wrong?"


I do that all the time, which is why I ask folk to tell me the benefits of the Brexit process, because I have spent a lot of time seeking benefits and understanding risks and problems and reached a risk reward based conclusion.

I may well be wrong as I'm not clairvoyant, but I do have an evidence based rationale for my views and every piece of professional Scenario Planning I've seen heads in the same direction...

I'm ambivalent too about the "Neverendum" because getting the question right and coping with misinformation from campaigns is not going to be straightforward, to put it mildly.

I have become even more concerned as I'm now seeing government sponsored misinformation appearing on Facebook, "selling" the Maydeal like a supermarket cereal brand.
User avatar
By OCB
#1655657
johnm wrote:I fear @OCB is misguided, the EU is very young and dealing with immensely complex problems and so it isn't surprising that there are nonsenses driven by messy compromises. The UK has had a relatively stable democracy since the 1920s but our system is still evolving and things get very messy and often don't work well.


I would take that as “we are violently agreeing “, to take a phrase out of US corporate culture. It’s a positive affirmation that the European “grand experiment” has passed beyond the part of the bell-curve that is both controllable and sustainable. Something many economists and politicians have written about since at latest the introduction of the Euro.

John, you’re more than free to attempt to be condescending ref the “misguided” part on a forum like this - it’s hard to know whether that debating technique transfers well to this format.

I don’t employ such mechanisms here, as it’s dull and other than the occasional “like” or positive/negative comment - you have no clue whether your intended debating parry worked or not.

Honestly, you’d be just as well saying “OCB, you’re a knuckle dragging racist bigot with the intellectual capacity of a cabbage. Oh, and your father was a hamster and your mother smells of elderberry...”

Happy to be on the receiving end of insults tho, my slightly masochistic Scots Calvinist mentality appreciates random thrashings. Whit disnae kills ye, maks ye stronger etc...

:thumright:
By cockney steve
#1655667
Short memories!
the complete and utter balls up, the elected have made of running our country over the last 2 years

ISTR the last Labour Government had Bliar running off with his ill-gotten gains, leaving the incompetent Broon to announce he would shortly be dumping a huge amount of Gold, at the bottom of the market, thus depressing the price further. Us powerless peasants just saw a "half- price sale" of our assets, with no recourse or redress. This total lack of financial probity was further exposed when , allegedly, the incoming Tory Chief Secretary was confronted with a notice on his desk "I'm afraid there is no money, kind regards and good luck"....This , from an outgoing Government who had been left ,by the Tories with a very healthy surplus....They repaid Thatcher's acolytes with a record borrowing deficit and a humungous National Debt.

The shambolic outfit currently attempting some semblance of unity, have at least attempted to create some semblance of order from the mess.
The EU can hardly be called "young"- the present incumbents were kids or wet-dreams when the organisation was formed....their duty was to study history and learn from O.P's mistakes, not inflict their repeats on the current generations.
The EU is showing vindictive spite , because, of course, all those recent Eastern European fringe -countries, Greece and Spain were shoo'd -in with highly suspect finances and promptly handed a shovelful of subsidies. (unused Spanish airports, half-finished developments, roads leading nowhere?
And all this was subsidised by Germany and the UK
(being the only two net contributors) Not surprising they're desperately trying to cling onto us, is it? but, like kids they're sulking....yes, we get a big rebate....it keeps a load of people employed by the EU machine....too easy and efficient to just not take it in the first- place. Then we have Government departments charging each other. hello? you're all supposed to be working for UK, not taking each- others' washing. See how the wasteful, unwieldy, self-serving EU gets on without us! Either it'll reassess it's objectives and focus, or it will die.
We have shown our hand, they don't like it, they will bear a grudge if we stay. We appear to have no diplomats , economists or politicians with the competence or drive to solve the problems. If we had, we'd never have got into this situation in the first place (neither Britain , nor the EU) the latter would be much smaller and comprised of strong economies with good administrations led by strong governments, instead of every lame-duck latching onto the few being bled dry.
By johnm
#1655676
The gamble the EU took with Eastern economies was a reasonable experiment to see if we could, after a 1000 years plus stop the Balkans having wars every 10 mins. As Tito's regime had been successful for a decent period it wasn't a daft idea and so far so good.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, our net contribution to the EU is peanuts and almost completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This chart puts it in perspective quite nicely I think


@OCB I didn't intend to be unpleasant, it's tricky to get the tone right in writing stuff, sorry :oops:
By Twinnshock
#1655679
Sooty25 wrote:
johnm wrote:@Sooty25 I can't imagine why anyone would hate the EU :shock:


Obviously not one of those EU workers from Southampton or Genk who lost their jobs after Ford moved Transit production to Turkey (outside the EU) Financed by a low rate 80 million Euro loan from the EU.

Stuart
By johnm
#1655682
Twinnshock wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:
johnm wrote:@Sooty25 I can't imagine why anyone would hate the EU :shock:


Obviously not one of those EU workers from Southampton or Genk who lost their jobs after Ford moved Transit production to Turkey (outside the EU) Financed by a low rate 80 million Euro loan from the EU.

Stuart



As it happens it wasn't quite like that, the detail isn't hard to find. I seem to remember that the Nottingham miners weren't greatly enamoured of the UK govt when we closed all the pits and started importing coal, nor were the steel workers when we closed all the blast furnaces and started getting cheap Chinese steel, even without a free trade agreement....or the shipyard workers when we started buying all our ships from Korea.

**** happens, trust me I've been in it more than once.... :roll:

I can understand why some people would have a specific personal reason for being unhappy and angry to put it mildly, but hate is a strong word....
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1655696
cockney steve wrote:Short memories!
Sooty25 wrote: the complete and utter balls up, the elected have made of running our country over the last 2 years


ISTR the last Labour Government had Bliar runni...... etc.


Fair comment Steve, what I meant and should have typed was "the complete and utter balls up, the elected have made of negotiating Brexit on behalf of our country over the last 2 years". Too busy squabbling and finding excuses not to do the task in hand.
cockney steve liked this
By riverrock
#1655697
cockney steve wrote: And all this was subsidised by Germany and the UK
(being the only two net contributors)

Other than the other net contributors Finland, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Italy and France.

Of course, we could have played the game differently, engaged with the EU (rather than fought with it) and got more out of it, like Ireland does (it is one of the largest Net receivers per capita of money from EU, yet has a similar and more vibrant economy than us).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... cs#Economy
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1655702
maybe voting rights should have been based on net contribution!
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 462