Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

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By OCB
#1655431
So, if there was a 2nd referendum- or Maybot gets her batteries removed, snap election and the next party decide to cancel Article 50 - where does that leave things?

Certainly with IndyRef, I have the feeling that there was a sense of anger amongst a fair few who voted “stay” with the quick procession of broken/backtracked/“clarified” promises from the Better Together camp - which is where I picked up the “neverendum” jeux du mots.

Same could be said for your typical British election. A bunch of politicians say things to get votes, turns out they’re not true - big difference there is the centuries of constitutional conventions etc.

Some folk continue to say xyz referendum was “a terrible idea”.

I disagree.

I think if there had been popular votes across Europe for landmark decisions such as Maastricht and Lisbon, and even the accession of eastern states - then we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now.
eltonioni, masterofnone liked this
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By Smaragd
#1655435
eltonioni wrote:This is unequivocal, for good or ill, whether we like it or not.



Let them off the hook at this level of promise once, and there's no reason why they should care about promises ever again.


Fake news! :lol:
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1655443
eltonioni wrote:Let them off the hook at this level of promise once, and there's no reason why they should care about promises ever again.


They never have cared about their promises and never will......
johnm liked this
By johnm
#1655450
We have created an environment where politics is a career and it's about staying in the Commons, getting a ministerial job and rounding it all off in the Lords.

They have no real solidly based political convictions or principles, no sense of public service and no idea how the world works.

There are honourable exceptions but they are a pretty shallow and odious lot.
T67M, Rob P, Katamarino and 1 others liked this
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By OCB
#1655455
johnm wrote:We have created an environment where politics is a career and it's about staying in the Commons, getting a ministerial job and rounding it all off in the Lords.

They have no real solidly based political convictions or principles, no sense of public service and no idea how the world works.

There are honourable exceptions but they are a pretty shallow and odious lot.


Ummm....why leave out the Schuman lot? Certainly a fair percentage of politico I've known clearly saw "the road to Brussels" as a very lucrative retirement plan. Tax free living, healthy pension pot, kids education paid for until 25 years old, enough living expenses to completely destroy the housing market for locals etc.
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By PaulB
#1655457
OCB wrote:.... completely destroy the housing market for locals etc.


We've managed to do that and not just in the capital.
johnm, Cowshed, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By johnm
#1655465
OCB wrote:
johnm wrote:We have created an environment where politics is a career and it's about staying in the Commons, getting a ministerial job and rounding it all off in the Lords.

They have no real solidly based political convictions or principles, no sense of public service and no idea how the world works.

There are honourable exceptions but they are a pretty shallow and odious lot.


Ummm....why leave out the Schuman lot? Certainly a fair percentage of politico I've known clearly saw "the road to Brussels" as a very lucrative retirement plan. Tax free living, healthy pension pot, kids education paid for until 25 years old, enough living expenses to completely destroy the housing market for locals etc.



Fair point, Farage has done very well out of biting the hand that feeds him, we could do with a few more on the other side.....
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By OCB
#1655480
johnm wrote:
Fair point, Farage has done very well out of biting the hand that feeds him, we could do with a few more on the other side.....


Yes, he makes great theatre out of publicly scoring points that are embarrassing for the vast majority of those who were happy with the financial and political consensus. Funnily enough, I see very few factual rebuttals of the points he makes in the Parliament - just character assassination (cheap, but effective).

My personal opinion is the guy is a knob - but when a knob is one of the few to stand up to obvious travesties of decency and democracy (take your pick...like the Strasbourg farce), then dammit - there is something fundamentally wrong with the institutions and the setup of the institutions.

What narks so many is that I'm actually a die-hard European Federalist, but very much for Brexit. I'd be over the moon if States like Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg etc ceased to exist and we had a a truly Federal (core) Europe.

It's a bit like saying you love the football team, but hate the current managers. That's how I feel about "Europe".

Europe needs Brexit - more than the UK IMHO. We need the "ever closer Union" fairy-tale high castles battered down to have an economic and political structure that actually works both externally and internally.

Right now we have a right stramash that is destined to lumber along from one crisis to another.

I said that 20 years ago, I've said it here before, I'm saying it again now - and for those who will be here in 10-20 years, if nothing drastically changes within the European institutions - I'll be saying the same thing....but in 10 years the EU will almost definitely have a lower overall GDP etc.
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By lobstaboy
#1655563
Nomad63 wrote:Believing another referendum would help settles things is extremely naive.


Yes, it's a bit like the LAA AGM having to vote on the same issue that everyone thought had been decided before...

You're correct, but that isn't a reason for not having a second referendum. Nothing is going to settle things. The fallout and aftershocks from this titanic disaster will go on for decades, whatever the outcome of Brexit.
By johnm
#1655570
I fear @OCB is misguided, the EU is very young and dealing with immensely complex problems and so it isn't surprising that there are nonsenses driven by messy compromises. The UK has had a relatively stable democracy since the 1920s but our system is still evolving and things get very messy and often don't work well. Things like:

Privatisation
Central versus local govt control of matters like planning
Failure to establish workable coalitions (FPTP means they are very unusual here)
Devolution and independence movements
London centric
Govt finance

all are problematic and continue to be so.

All of these things impact our lives and can be immensely frustrating and annoying, the Scots respond with their version of the Brexit debate, which ironically is partly triggered by a desire to be closer to Europe than England, which deep rooted cultural issue goes back to the 17th century :-)
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By Sooty25
#1655581
johnm wrote:I fear @OCB is misguided, the EU is very young and dealing with immensely complex problems and so it isn't surprising that there are nonsenses driven by messy compromises.



And there lies half of the problems,

It has grown far too fast
It is attempting to cover far too many subjects
It has been allowed to take too much control

Had it remained faithful to its roots, it wouldn't be hated by so many.
cockney steve, OCB, Charles Hunt and 1 others liked this
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