Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By haggis
#1664693
Go read how Bismarck “unified” Germany before the First World War. It the E U under a different name, a different time a different place. The result is the same. The UK seems to be the voice of moderation in all of this federalism yet we let ourselves down with internal squabbles and argument. Junker is just a jumped up petty little functionary. Perhaps if the queen was to award him with the “ knight of the turds second class “ we might make collectively some progress!
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By kanga
#1664702
eltonioni wrote:So come on then, confess, who put their cross against Juncker at the last election?


A few more (a qualified majority of elected Hs of G) than put a cross against the election of the UK Cabinet Secretary, an analogous position (1 person, the UK PM) ..
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1664703
haggis wrote:Go read how Bismarck “unified” Germany before the First World War. It the E U under a different name, a different time a different place. The result is the same. The UK seems to be the voice of moderation in all of this federalism yet we let ourselves down with internal squabbles and argument. Junker is just a jumped up petty little functionary. Perhaps if the queen was to award him with the “ knight of the turds second class “ we might make collectively some progress!


The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was formed in 1807 and the latest iteration i.e. the independence of Ireland meant that from 1922 we have the UK formed by NI and Great Britain, so there have been some changes on both sides of the channel before the nations as we currently know them were formed.

The result of Bismarck's efforts was that the Germans stopped having their internal bickering.

Ironically the various different German 'countries' have much more independence from the Federal State than any of the UK Countries, and that independence is fiercely guarded against any attempt by the Federal State to impinge on that independence.

Maybe that is the reason why the Germans (and maybe the French too - don't know their system well enough) are less worried about a federal system.
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By Leodisflyer
#1664726
Bill Haddow wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
. . . with the UK leaving both the UK and the EU will be poorer . .



I actually think that after we leave, the EU will either have to back off its federal agenda and go back a bit to being more of an economic, trading, bloc (which I suspect is more in tune with the needs and aspirations of most Europeans) or our departure will simply hasten the demise of the EU. I think either scenario would be better for the remaining members.

In any event, I do not think the EU can continue on its present course.

Bill H


Are you suggesting that we are benefiting other countries and the EU by leaving?

Very altruistic, but what do we get out of it?
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By OCB
#1664728
You all do realise the entire Brit v European EU discontent was described decades ago by dusty old lawyers who said that Brit “common law” versus Napoleonic law would never work...
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By Sir Morley Steven
#1664730
Tell you what that Mrs May never gives up.
If I ever wanted to get my kids back off a social worker I would ask her!
By Leodisflyer
#1664743
OCB wrote:You all do realise the entire Brit v European EU discontent was described decades ago by dusty old lawyers who said that Brit “common law” versus Napoleonic law would never work...


And yet we have had some very sensible regulations from the EU that have been adopted into UK law. Directives have been gold plated sometimes, but that's a national issue.

I really don't get the whole common law vs Napoleonic argument. Murder is illegal regardless of what country you are in. We do struggle here with ambiguity in some areas and the lack of a written constitution, but that is another national issue.

I saw some stuff about the Magna Carta, but that as designed for Nobles, was pre-universal suffrage and contains some rather antisemitic assumptions.
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By johnm
#1664756
OCB wrote:You all do realise the entire Brit v European EU discontent was described decades ago by dusty old lawyers who said that Brit “common law” versus Napoleonic law would never work...



It has some mildly interesting side effects but hardly insurmountable.
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By eltonioni
#1664761
kanga wrote:
eltonioni wrote:So come on then, confess, who put their cross against Juncker at the last election?


A few more (a qualified majority of elected Hs of G) than put a cross against the election of the UK Cabinet Secretary, an analogous position (1 person, the UK PM) ..


OK, which Heads of Government did we all vote for so they could vote for JCJ to be president. Come on boys and girls, which of us voted for who so they could vote for the old soak to be President?
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1664762
eltonioni wrote:
kanga wrote:
eltonioni wrote:So come on then, confess, who put their cross against Juncker at the last election?


A few more (a qualified majority of elected Hs of G) than put a cross against the election of the UK Cabinet Secretary, an analogous position (1 person, the UK PM) ..


OK, which Heads of Government did we all vote for so they could vote for JCJ to be president. Come on boys and girls, which of us voted for who so they could vote for the old soak to be President?


Well, not Tess.

She's the PM because of some horse trading in the Con-party.
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By johnm
#1664767
eltonioni wrote:
kanga wrote:
eltonioni wrote:So come on then, confess, who put their cross against Juncker at the last election?


A few more (a qualified majority of elected Hs of G) than put a cross against the election of the UK Cabinet Secretary, an analogous position (1 person, the UK PM) ..


OK, which Heads of Government did we all vote for so they could vote for JCJ to be president. Come on boys and girls, which of us voted for who so they could vote for the old soak to be President?


It is one of life’s ironies that the only objectors to Juncker’s appointment were Cameron and the Hungarian Prime Minister :roll:
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By OCB
#1664790
Leodisflyer wrote:
OCB wrote:You all do realise the entire Brit v European EU discontent was described decades ago by dusty old lawyers who said that Brit “common law” versus Napoleonic law would never work...


And yet we have had some very sensible regulations from the EU that have been adopted into UK law. Directives have been gold plated sometimes, but that's a national issue.

I really don't get the whole common law vs Napoleonic argument. Murder is illegal regardless of what country you are in. We do struggle here with ambiguity in some areas and the lack of a written constitution, but that is another national issue.

I saw some stuff about the Magna Carta, but that as designed for Nobles, was pre-universal suffrage and contains some rather antisemitic assumptions.


I wouldn’t have either if it hadn’t been for the fortune of growing up with right smart beggars.

At a philosophical level the easiest way I heard to describe common versus Napoleonic law is the former says “you can do what you want, unless there is a law that says otherwise”.

The latter says you can only do what the law says you can.

It’s not that simple, but the concept isn’t that far away.

There was a time not that long ago that if you were in employment and healthy you could spend decades with zero interaction with “guvmint”, and that was a healthy and responsible state of affairs.

Here in Belgium, you basically have to ask permission for everything, unless you know for sure it’s legal.

I’ve never understood why this was never considered more of an issue, I came to the conclusion I was more of an idiot than 99% of hue others
By Leodisflyer
#1664792
Thanks.

I’m trying it relate that to practicalities. Maybe that is why there is so much more local control in, say, France. AIUI the mayors have a lot of local power.

Makes me wonder whether common law is at the root of a lot of our problems with very centralised Government here and people fearing regulaton that is actually largely intended to address two themes of the EU - protect the rights and freedoms of citizens and establish a level playng field to enable free trade.

The GDPR makes extensive reference to rights and freedoms of data subjects as key tests.
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By eltonioni
#1664800
Juncker blinked (though Merkel seems to be running the show) so it looks like May will get some kind of backstop limit before the vote next week.
https://www.ft.com/content/979bf172-157 ... f78404524e


This is worrying though. She told off the UK for talking about the EU Army during the referendum campaign.
https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/opin ... 1547138341

The article she references lays it all out. https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/opin ... 44164.html
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