For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Sooty25
#1655514
johnm wrote:
The EU has been remarkably successful in its short existence in providing a political and economic catalyst for stabilising Europe, .


Yeah, Greek and Italian economics, riots in Paris, migrant invasions...... cue excuses....
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By OCB
#1655515
johnm wrote:No bother, the U.K. has been a reasonably stable democracy since the 1920s. EU is certainly relatively new and developing, but its structure is well defined and endorsed through Treaties.

The U.K. was amongst the economic basket cases in the 1970s and some would argue still is in some respects.

The EU has been remarkably successful in its short existence in providing a political and economic catalyst for stabilising Europe, but there’s no cause for complacency as events in Poland and Hungary have shown .


John - I would say I hate to play devil's advocate, but I do it for everything (meh, call it scientific method if you will).

The current constitutional makeup of the European institutions, based on actual Treaties - came into existence *when* exactly? Hint: I think I have socks that are older....

Certainly the makeup of the UK was not at all "democratic" for long and weary, but the alliance of Kingdoms, Principality and Provinces have been more or less stable for the best part of 300 years - and most of the component parts were stable for nearly 1000 years as political and economic entities.

Compare and contrast with the likes of Spain, where they're still bickering over the final resting place of their dearly and recently departed Fascist Dictator - and the enormous monument glorifying the victory of Fascism where his bones lie.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1655521
I have never pretended that the EU was perfect and wonderful, merely that it was doing some good things and travelling in a sensible direction. The idea that the UK has been stable for an extended period is a bit of a stretch, it's not even stable now, with problems in Ireland and Scotland. We may not always be as excitable as our continental brethren, but we have our moments and I can still clearly remember the bombings and riots of the 1970s and 80s. One of my staff actually turned up to the Natwest tower in response to alarms when it was trashed by the Bishopsgate bomb.


I can see many faults in my home country and in the EU very clearly, but I don't see any reason to throw away the opportunities offered by the EU to my children and grandchildren for absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
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By OCB
#1655535
John, I think that just about everyone - except the complete fanatical anti-EU brigade -would agree that the European Institutions are a step up from what we had previously (cf Godwin).

I, for one, have been happy with the EU's attempts to maintain (apparently) higher food and environmental standards.

Where your logic is falling down is generality versus specificity arguments.

Yes, the UK has a long history of political faults, at home and abroad; the general trend recently has been been more democratic, open, accountable and honest.

The EU, has a short history - and IMHO a hell of a lot more faults recently than are forgivable for such a young and idealistic structure. When I talk with the oldies here in Belgium, France and NL - they are more annoyed than most. They don't recognise the "EEC" they built any more than Brits do - even worse.

They set up the "club", but now it's been subverted and they openly resent many facets of the new organisation - and openly talk about "going back to" the old club structure.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1655595
When I talk with the oldies here in Belgium, France and NL - they are more annoyed than most.


Therein lies the issue.

I find myself aged 72 out on a limb amongst some of my peers for three reasons. One is I'm tolerant of the EU because I see that the benefits outweigh the faults by a handsome margin. Two is that I'm highly critical of the UK govt and Parliament because I think they're mostly grossly incompetent and self serving. The third is I don't have ailments as my primary topic of conversation :-)
Tall_Guy_In_a_PA28, OCB, riverrock and 2 others liked this
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By OCB
#1655661
John, I’ve been to a fair few EU (Parliament/Commission/NATO parliamentary assembly etc) parties with folks 15- 20 years younger than you.

It’s amazing the number of times we all end talking about what we do/take to treat piles, dry skin, get rid of cold sores etc.

In some ways it’s incredibly heartwarming to know that even “our glorious leaders” worry about what colour their pee is...(yes, seriously).

Nothing to do with Galileo of course....I’m sure he didn’t have piles or pee that was too dark..