Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1653196
Miscellaneous wrote:You forgot to add; after you discover 'their prolific burglaries around the region'.


Where I'm from it was a few bad families. Everyone knew who they were. It was just a case of proving it. They would be in and out of prison, and when in, it gave the community a little bit of respite.

I'm all for a system of doubling the sentence each time they're convicted.
1x 2x 4x 8x 16x 32x....
Miscellaneous, seanxair, Lockhaven and 5 others liked this
#1653198
Don't you think there's a better ring to the word logarithmic, or even exponential, than there is to plain old doubling. :D :wink:

On a serious note:

I think the number one answer to the problem is education, no question. In parallel to education is opportunity, there has to be a means of staying out the gutter and away from crime. However, I'm beginning to wonder if in fact certain career criminals are so far beyond rehabilitation that the most efficient use of money may well be building more prisons. There is clearly a criminal element that choose that way of life and have no intention or desire of living any other life.
eltonioni, JAFO liked this
#1653204
Miscellaneous wrote:On a serious note:

I think the number one answer to the problem is education, no question. In parallel to education is opportunity, there has to be a means of staying out the gutter and away from crime. However, I'm beginning to wonder if in fact certain career criminals are so far beyond rehabilitation that the most efficient use of money may well be building more prisons. There is clearly a criminal element that choose that way of life and have no intention or desire of living any other life.



Is it education, parenting (which may stem from education) or opportunity. (Not opportunity to commit crime, but opportunity to live a decent life without resorting to crime.... We all manage it, but we're educated, which leads us back to.....
cockney steve liked this
#1653205
Miscellaneous wrote:
I'm sorry @gasman but as well meaning and decent as your approach is, it is what I'd term an armchair view.


My 'armchair view' is based on a 40 year career dealing with the devastating human consequences of (mainly) motorcycle accidents - a motor car is a lethal weapon when used against a scooter .
#1653213
I enjoyed that video too, especially the one where the kid gets up and gestures as if to say "what did you do that for?" :lol:

Flying_john wrote:
More important than this is the massive reduction in police budgets



Even more important is the fact that many Police officer hours are wasted dealing with social and mental welfare issues that used to be dealt with by other parts of our system. Its not unheard of for two officers to spend an entire shift "babysitting" one individual at a hospital or be transporting others to "places of safety".


Was there ever a time when the police weren't the first responders to mental health "emergencies"? A few weeks ago during late morning a young chap wandered past my study window in dressing gown and slippers and obviously in some distress. I called the police and they went to look for him. Who else but the police has there ever been in those circumstances?

Now, Twitter and Facebook politeness - there's something that the police shouldn't be policing. I'm a bit baffled at some of the things that the police get themselves involved with and turn into criminal offences, whether it's that man who was never going to blow up Finningley, or the oddball who taught his dog to sieg heil to annoy his girlfriend. The second one might still go to jail for his poor taste joke.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19009344

https://www.forbes.com/sites/fruzsinaeo ... -nazi-pug/
Last edited by eltonioni on Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
skydriller liked this
#1653214
gasman wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:
I'm sorry @gasman but as well meaning and decent as your approach is, it is what I'd term an armchair view.


My 'armchair view' is based on a 40 year career dealing with the devastating human consequences of (mainly) motorcycle accidents - a motor car is a lethal weapon when used against a scooter .


I have to say many of those motorcycle accidents are being caused by the very criminals stealing them in the first place.
#1653215
gasman wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:
I'm sorry @gasman but as well meaning and decent as your approach is, it is what I'd term an armchair view.


My 'armchair view' is based on a 40 year career dealing with the devastating human consequences of (mainly) motorcycle accidents - a motor car is a lethal weapon when used against a scooter .

Sorry gasman, the consequences of being hit by a patrol car are not reason enough to let them away with it to do it again. The onus is on and decision is with them. No one forces them in to it.

PeteSpencer wrote:I still think it's a cracking video.


I confess to not having watched it. Knowing the scores got caught is satisfying enough for me. :D

@PaulB Paul we agree, that's what I'm suggesting, that it is largely down to education and opportunity, which are linked. And really your comment about education/parenting is recognition that there was failure in educating the previous generation.

I need to be careful here or I'll slip in to comments likely to attract accusations of promoting eugenics. :shock:
Lockhaven liked this
#1653235
eltonioni wrote:Was there ever a time when the police weren't the first responders to mental health "emergencies"?


Oh yes, indeed. Over the years, my dad, as a GP, went to many such emergency calls. On one occasion he had a knife held to his throat, but by a process of negotiation eventually became the chap's best friend by the time the men in white coats came to take him away.
Dave W liked this
#1653261
gasman wrote:The Flyer Lynch Mob gives their predictable responses.

If a scooter rider is seriously injured (as will happen) then the police will be charged with using disproportionate force.
Innocent pedestrians and motorists will inevitably be harmed in time by this police action.
Surely prevention is better than a cure ?
Intelligence led proactive policing is far better than wild-west tactics.
Standing by for incoming indignation......


This is prevention!

These gangs use violence on owners to steal the scooter/moped/motorcycle whilst the owner is riding it or whilst it is parked at home or in the garage. The thieves use or threaten to use an array of weapons from hammers, crow bars, baseball bats, knives, battery powered tools, acid spray. If at the owners home they may cause extra collateral damage (e.g, damage to cars and other property) if the owner intervenes to deter the owner fighting back.
If whilst the owner is riding it, it is likely when stopped for a red traffic light and a group surround the rider - if the rider is to escape with their motorcycle they have to realize what is happening and ride through red lights whilst being chased, and to prevent that the thieves will try to get at the engine kill switch before the rider knows whats happening.

When using a scooter/moped/motorcycle to commit another crime, the thieves will ride very dangerously anyway to get away from pursuit by the police or general public. So they risk injuring innocent pedestrians, children, puppies and cyclists anyway.

Some thieves will throw a helmet away knowing the police were historically likely to stop the chase. There is footage of this on reality tv crash/crime programs and online. So thieves are prepared to risk head injury to themselves to get away whilst running through red lights and give ways without stopping, riding up paths, off road, wrong way on one way streets, plus they could crash for any of the more usual reasons.

Now the police tactics have changed to knock thieves off scooters/mopeds/motorcycles this will hopefully break the cycle as word spreads the thieves risk something between a bruising and ending up in A&E whilst being recorded by police for the prosecution, judge and jury. The police will be trained to pick their moment to reduce the need for A&E.

Yes it is sad it has come to this but something has to change to prevent it for all the victims .

Yes it is unfortunate if a thief is injured by the police, but on balance this is proportionate to the number of direct victims of their crimes that may have life changing physical or mental health consequences as well as financial losses and perhaps data theft and identity theft.
Some will say it is also proportionate to the rest of the population (indirect victims) that pay for it through higher cost house insurance and motoring/riding insurance.

What else can be done other than general public bystanders swarming a few thieves on mopeds at the scene of crime and sitting on them until the police arrive?
Lockhaven, AlanC, tcinbg and 3 others liked this
#1653265
GAFlyer4Fun wrote:
What else can be done other than general public bystanders swarming a few thieves on mopeds at the scene of crime and sitting on them until the police arrive?


Addressing poverty and inequality in society would be a start.
What about reversing the cuts to police numbers?
How about more visible policing on the streets?
Heaven forbid that we acknowledge that the present drugs policy is failing and fueling crime.

Instead of knocking scrotes off their scooters why don’t we just shoot them?
PaulB liked this
#1653266
5 people died close to my house last year. 3 of them were children. One child, who was driving, survived and is now in jail.

My own children knew at least one of the victims from their time at primary school.

During the summer leading up to this there was a repeated problem with youths riding around with no helmet on a trail bike. I saw one of them once with two children sat on the fuel tank and one behind riding pillion - all on a main road, none with helmets.

One time I went to follow the bike, from a safe distance, came across a police van, stopped it to report what was happening and the bike came past with another rider on it while we were talking. The police van driver said that there was nothing he could do to catch the riders.

I don’t know if there was link, but the bike was on the same estate where the children who died lived and I can’t help thinking that a culture was developing that could have been stopped.

As I’ve said here before, I can no longer drink brandy, one of the friends of the victims was drinking from an open bottle the evening after the crash and I was trying to briefly give him some words of comfort. I will never forget the smell of that open bottle, his breath, his tears and the sight of the aftermath of the crash.
#1653268
gasman wrote:
GAFlyer4Fun wrote:
What else can be done other than general public bystanders swarming a few thieves on mopeds at the scene of crime and sitting on them until the police arrive?


Addressing poverty and inequality in society would be a start.
What about reversing the cuts to police numbers?
How about more visible policing on the streets?
Heaven forbid that we acknowledge that the present drugs policy is failing and fueling crime.

Instead of knocking scrotes off their scooters why don’t we just shoot them?


It's nothing new.

Some crime has fallen as a result of rising living standards and the reduction of the level of poisons in people's blood.

My mother taught in the prison service in the 70s - prisons and borstals. She was able to take some of the boys out on day release trip from the borstal so a I got to meet a lot of offenders.

Poverty in itself cannot be blamed. Poverty is nothing new and there are many great parents and settled children, who came from poverty. My own grandmother was in abject poverty as a child, but she went on to raise 5 children who each went to the top of their respective fields. My father is recognised internationally for his work. Once thing that does stand out though was that my great aunt did one tell her son "we didn't know we were poor, everybody else was in the same bloat".

The points being made here about the causes of crime and the futility of the prison system were being made in the 70s.

There are reasons why I am as strong believer in giving children a a supportive and nurturing family background and not submitting them to emotional and physical abuse. Emotional support, diet and environment are, I believe, very significant factors in child behaviour.
Korenwolf, OCB liked this
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