Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
By johnm
#1652692
Miscellaneous wrote:Where is the notion he needs psychiatric help coming from?

He's behaving like a lunatic :twisted: :roll:
#1652694
I'm mostly with Dutch here- somebody said to me once that prisons are full of "The mad, the bad, and the sad" and that only one of those should be in there. The purpose of prison is to protect society, not to make society feel good about what it has done to punish the bad people.

So people should be in prison because it's in society's interest to simply remove them (that in particular is the habitual re-offenders, predatory paedophiles, etc.) and those who are considered capable of reform but need to be isolated whilst they are treated.

I do disagree with Dutch insofar as I believe that reflection and self awareness can be taught, for some people. Whether prison is the right place for that, of course, will depend on circumstances - sometimes it'll be true, sometimes it probably isn't.

G
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By johnm
#1652696
Prisons are now so understaffed and badly run there's no prospect of any positive impact on inmates. We need root and branch reform of how to deal with offenders and we need to try and get back to being a civilised country before that has any chance of happening.

When the Prison Reform Trust declares itself redundant we'll be in with a chance.

We're a declining and decadent imperial power in urgent need of a renaissance :roll:
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By avtur3
#1652698
cockney steve wrote: ... They take the risk, they know the consequences...
..... see opening point....If they're that retarded they don't understand the consequences of their actions, they need locking in a psychiatric hospital, but we are a bit short of them, so sling 'em in jail .....
.


I am the last person in the world who would think of myself as a do-gooder, but unable to agree with your point I'm sure that's what you'll call me.

I really don't think you have an appreciation of the significance of drug and alcohol related lawlessness, its consequences and the link with mental health. The reason we're building up such a colossal level of social problems is because the link between punishment and deterrent IS broken. and identifying people as being retarded really doesn't help. Substance abuse starts innocently as a means of escape but for an increasing number of people it soon takes over and becomes a way of life, and then that way of life leads to criminality. That is what happens, I'm not condoning it or making excuses, I'm simply recognizing what's going around me. Society needs a massive rethink if we're gong to get to grips with this problem.

Everyday tens of thousands of bobbies turn up for work up and down the country, they signed up to protect life and property, not to be social workers. But they're having to become social workers because of the nature of problems that are being directed at them. It's not what they want to do, it's probably not what most of us want them to do, but it's what they have to do.
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By Sooty25
#1652733
I have this vision of what may have happened and isn't reported

Driver agrees to take the ladies to the airport and hits the diversions.
Stress level already rising as he can see the time eroding.
From the back seat he is subjected to,
"where are we going?"
"why are we here?"
"we are going the wrong way"
"we are going to miss our flight"
"your going to make us miss our flight"
"where are we going?"
"why are we here?"
"we are going the wrong way"
"we are going to miss our flight"
"your going to make us miss our flight"

Traffic slows in front of him, he thinks, "I know, I'll just ask that chap..."

Really bad decision, we all know that, he can't undo it.

Whilst awaiting trial, and suffering the distress of losing his partner and knowing he caused it, Granddaughter says, "granddad my test is next week, I can't parallel park, I really need help"

Not wishing to let down another family member, thinks "she needs my help, we'll only be down the road....."

If my guess on the driving lesson is close and no harm was done, then a severe talking to by the Judge should have sufficed for that alone.

The main event sentencing, without being there and hearing the full case, it is hard to agree or disagree, however, I don't think the concept of imprisonment for an act of accidental stupidity is appropriate, when looked at in relation to some of the insane sentencing we see for proper, pre-meditated crimes.

I have sympathy for all involved.
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By Leodisflyer
#1653080
Neatly sums up the difficulty in getting juries to convict dangerous driving cases, leaving the families of victims of drivers feeling aggrieved by the lack of justice. This is especially true when the CPS goes for lower charges than the police suggest because the CPS know there is a problem with juries and driving cases. "It was a momentary lapse", " I can sympathise", "there but for the grace of God"....

This driver made the mistake of getting out of his car, ceasing to be a driver in the eyes of the jury, making it indisputably driving conduct that"falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver".

With the problems we have on the road with continued "monetary lapses" causing people to be killed and maimed then we need to remove driving offences from the jury system and have them prosecuted in dedicated expert courts. Its the only way I see to get consistency, fairness and justice for victims and their families.
Last edited by Leodisflyer on Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By PaulB
#1653101
Dangerous driving is driving that the average person deems to be dangerous. The problem in the jury room is that you’ll have 12 potentially different limits as to what actually constitutes “dangerous”.
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By Leodisflyer
#1653103
Exactly, but you don't even have to define dangerous. How can 12 people be expected to judge what "falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver" when such a high proportion of drivers set themselves a low expectation of their own behaviour.

Stuck again in traffic today alongside somebody who was doing their emails while driving. Still, at least I wasn't exposed to their Tinder/Grindr habits as has happened before.
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By eltonioni
#1664855
Seems the Prisons Minister has been having thoughts about this too. No jail for less than 6 months. Rory Stewart is to be applauded for having a go at breaking the cycle of pointless imprisonment. He's going to get some flak.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/pris ... 37006.html
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By johnm
#1664858
eltonioni wrote:Seems the Prisons Minister has been having thoughts about this too. No jail for less than 6 months. Rory Stewart is to be applauded for having a go at breaking the cycle of pointless imprisonment. He's going to get some flak.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/pris ... 37006.html



It seems his motivation is more worthy than cost reduction too. I paraphrase because I couldn't cut and paste "These sentences are long enough to damage you but not long enough to heal you"

Good on him!
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By Leodisflyer
#1664859
Rory Stewart is consistently impressive. Always engages and engaging, listens and makes his points well. Uses facts and rationality. I don’t agree with some of his conclusions, but I do find him persuasive.

He seems to be at his best with interviewers that don’t go for a baying confrontational style. There others like him coming out of the woodwork at the moment.

Just wanted to get that in before the thread gets locked :-)
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1664875
It really is good news that the person in charge of prisons 'gets it' and is willing to do something positive with it.

That short sentences serve no purpose has been known for a long time.

:thumright: :thumleft:

Hopefully they will bring in the changes with some thought and resource attached to it; not just chucking people out or not metering out an appropriate sentence and management.
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By kanga
#1665092
ISTR reading recently that in Scotland there has already been such a move towards sentences of <3 months; and that this may soon to be raised to <12 months. But there, the custodial costs savings have been ploughed back into costs and staffing of supervision of non-custodial 'community payback' services, and there has been a concomitant drop in reoffending rates, which is surely the objective of any justice system, both for the offender and for the wider community (potential victims). :thumright:

I fear that in England&Wales, Treasury ideology will instinctively try to snaffle back all the instant apparent savings, and continue to make the most experienced (deliberately, as saving the most in pay and potential pension) prison and probation staff redundant, and outsourcing their roles to the highest bidder, all in the name of 'efficiency'. With no extra money nor staff for community supervision, there will be no reduction in reoffending rates, and there will be a clamour to reimposemore and longer custodial sentences .. :roll:
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By avtur3
#1665095
kanga wrote:ISTR reading recently that in Scotland there has already been such a move towards sentences of <3 months; and that this may soon to be raised to <12 months. But there, the custodial costs savings have been ploughed back into costs and staffing of supervision of non-custodial 'community payback' services, and there has been a concomitant drop in reoffending rates, which is surely the objective of any justice system, both for the offender and for the wider community (potential victims). :thumright:

I fear that in England&Wales, Treasury ideology will instinctively try to snaffle back all the instant apparent savings, and continue to make the most experienced (deliberately, as saving the most in pay and potential pension) prison and probation staff redundant, and outsourcing their roles to the highest bidder, all in the name of 'efficiency'. With no extra money nor staff for community supervision, there will be no reduction in reoffending rates, and there will be a clamour to reimposemore and longer custodial sentences .. :roll:


@kanga has nailed this 100%, so my interpretation is that we simply can't trust our government to do the right thing, there is no morality in their decision making it is ALL driven by the number at the bottom right corner of the spreadsheet.