Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Flying_john
#1652649
It seems you just cant legislate for either; stupidity, lack of commonsense or education (or lack thereof).

So what is left - you could hardly re-introduce chain gangs as a deterent.

Oh - or maybe you could - perhaps we have become so PC that hard physical deterents might be the answer. :twisted:
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By stevelup
#1652653
If you act like a complete and utter tool, and then go on to break the law a second time whilst temporarily banned for your first act of toolery, then you can expect that going to prison is a possibility.

As a deterrent, you would think for most people, that would be adequate.
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By flybymike
#1652655
stevelup wrote:The person in the OP -deliberately- stopped where he did which directly led to the tragedy. He then thought it was a good idea to -deliberately- give someone driving lessons whilst banned.

Your person did not -deliberately- run over their child.

My hypothetical person deliberately reversed their car without (obviously) having ensured it was safe to do so, leading directly to the tragedy. No one premeditated a fatality in any of these cases. They were all thoughtless careless random acts reflecting the human condition.
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By eltonioni
#1652663
seanxair wrote:Causing death by dangerous driving is a criminal offence; being gay isn't so not sure why you draw this comparison.

Being a gay man was a criminal offence, and led to all sorts of inappropriate "solutions". At some time society realised that it was stupid, solved nothing, and so stopped doing it.
Miscellaneous wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:However this chap chose to drive whilst banned...

Was he banned at time of the incident?
@eltonioni presumably you do believe he should be punished? What punishment do you consider appropriate?

I don't know, something based around community service maybe? I'm pretty certain that locking him up for two and a half years isn't achieving anything useful that couldn't be done without locking him up.

stevelup wrote:If you act like a complete and utter tool, and then go on to break the law a second time whilst temporarily banned for your first act of toolery, then you can expect that going to prison is a possibility.

As a deterrent, you would think for most people, that would be adequate.

Evidently prison wasn't an adequate deterrent. QED. It's worth remembering that he got the two and a half years for killing two people, not giving driving lessons while banned (max 6 months according to Google).

I still can't get past this retribution factor where we're damning people to prison and eventually leaving jail to no home, no income, no family, no friends, no support, and another life destroyed just so unconnected people can feel they have had their pound of flesh with the punishment meted out.
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By seanxair
#1652666
eltonioni wrote:I still can't get past this retribution factor where we're damning people to prison and eventually leaving jail to no home, no income, no family, no friends, no support, and another life destroyed just so unconnected people can feel they have had their pound of flesh with the punishment meted out.
[/quote]

The victims of crime or their families may feel the need for retribution. I think many of us that are completely unconnected want sufficient deterrents via the criminal justice system which actually make at least some individuals think before they act. For me that means longer, harsher sentences.
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By eltonioni
#1652668
seanxair wrote:
eltonioni wrote: The victims of crime or their families may feel the need for retribution. I think many of us that are completely unconnected want sufficient deterrents via the criminal justice system which actually make at least some individuals think before they act. For me that means longer, harsher sentences.

Those longer harsher sentences don't work though. The countries with the highest murder rates also have capital punishment, and it doesn't get much harsher and longer than execution and permanent death.

Unless somebody needs removing from society for the protection of society (and that's probably to a psychiatric institution) a more useful deterrent than incarceration needs finding IMO, but I'm obviously not making my case very well.
Last edited by eltonioni on Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By seanxair
#1652669
[/quote]Those longer harsher sentences don't work though. The countries with the highest murder rates also have capital punishment, and it doesn't get much harsher and longer than execution and permanent death. [/quote]

Stops some re-offending at least
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By PaulB
#1652671
seanxair wrote:
Those longer harsher sentences don't work though. The countries with the highest murder rates also have capital punishment, and it doesn't get much harsher and longer than execution and permanent death.


Stops some re-offending at least


Only if you execute the right person.

Where’s Gerard when we need him?
By riverrock
#1652673
eltonioni wrote:The countries with the highest murder rates also have capital punishment

Easy access to guns may also play a part.
Top 4 countries with the highest murder rates don't have capital punishment. (El Salvador; Honduras; Venezuela; Virgin Islands).

Country with the highest number of murders (Brazil) also doesn't have capital punishment.
By avtur3
#1652674
seanxair wrote:
eltonioni wrote:I still can't get past this retribution factor where we're damning people to prison and eventually leaving jail to no home, no income, no family, no friends, no support, and another life destroyed just so unconnected people can feel they have had their pound of flesh with the punishment meted out.


The victims of crime or their families may feel the need for retribution. I think many of us that are completely unconnected want sufficient deterrents via the criminal justice system which actually make at least some individuals think before they act. For me that means longer, harsher sentences.


I understand the need for families (and society at large) to see justice work in a way that sanctions people for their unlawful acts; there is a "scale of charges" and this is what has been applied in this case.

What concerns me is the increasing ineffectiveness (as I see it) of punishment as a deterrent to breaking the law/committing crimes. In the case of motoring law all of us here are aware of the sanctions that will be applied if we break speed limits, cross double white lines, drive without insurance, drive while drunk etc. etc. and for the most part the knowledge of the sanctions causes us all to keep (just) the right side of the law :wink:

However in the case of this guy who stopped in lane three to ask directions I'm really not sure that the thought of sanctions has even occurred to him, let alone that he made a conscious decision that it was "worth the risk". He has demonstrated a complete disconnect from the logic that would prevented anyone of us doing that. As for the driving while disqualified, well was that total disregard for the law or were his thought processes somehow impaired to the point where he didn't connect his action with breaking the law and there being a consequence? Either way punishment has not acted as a deterrent.

Look at the lawless drink and drug induced behaviour that is a common sight on the streets of our towns and cities. The deterrent effect of punishment doesn't appear to have any impact on behaviour for a great number of people. Look at domestic situations that result in murder, or street violence with knives the idea of getting caught and suffering the consequences is not stopping these things from happening.

I have no idea what the answer is but clearly the problem is getting larger and more complex as time goes back. At a personal level most of us are concerned about this but somehow the people we choose to represent us don't appear to have the guts to admit there is a problem let alone the will to try and fix it,
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By PaulB
#1652677
Is it (for minor crimes at least) the likelihood of being caught more than the sentence meted out if you are?
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1652681
@eltonioni

The whole prison system needs reforming because the prisons are full and the reoffending rates are too high. That is costing society too much in money, resources and lost opportunities - it also destroys lives.

80% of people in prison have a mental health related issue; about half of them are psychiatrically ill, a fair few others have learning disabilities and the rest have personality disorders leading them to behave in a way that brings them into contact with the judicial system.

The remaining 20% are career criminals.

The latter and the ones with the personality disorders are unlikely to respond to treatment and/or rehabilitation - that leaves a large proportion which can and should be managed different from being stuck in a jail.

It would be unwise to proclaim that, based on the information provided, we can determine which category this offender falls into, however we do know that no psychiatric issues were referred to in the article; that makes it less likely that this is an issue - most defence lawyers are quick to ensure that mental health issues are highlighted.

I am not sure I can share your view that this chap should not have been sent to have a sit an rethink - he did something unbelievably stupid and as a result 2 people died and a large number of people (including the third passenger) will have been affected deeply.

On top of that he then thought it a good idea to give someone some driving lessons when he was banned from driving himself - displaying a total lack of insight and self reflection.

Insight and self-reflection can't be taught.

There is a long line of people ahead of this chap who would be better out of prison and in rehabilitation programmes, treatment programmes.
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By cockney steve
#1652690
@eltonioni said
It's worth remembering that he got the two and a half years for killing two people, not giving driving lessons while banned (max 6 months according to Google).

perhaps a year each for the 2 slayings and 6 months for the total lack of shame or remorse shown by "teaching" some fool, after the deaths but before the trial.

we're damning people to prison and eventually leaving jail to no home, no income, no family, no friends, no support, and another life destroyed just so unconnected people can feel they have had their pound of flesh

Oh Dear! :roll:
They take the risk, they know the consequences. those who abide by the rules deserve protection from those who flout them to the detriment of others*
Should think of the ramifications, before their actions...There's a history of people committing crimes deliberately to get back "inside"
In this case, it's quite probable he has his own home awaiting his return.
Pension(s) or Social Security (or whatever the current trendy term is for NAB.
Friends? would You stay friends with such an a-hole?
Support- see above...Always some misguided "do-gooder " willing to help the "fallen" Plenty of Churches competing for members. I'm sure they'll all embrace their dietie's wishes and help their fellow man...(well, perhaps not! :P )
Unconnected people? - How about Secondary victims?
life destroyed? see opening point....If they're that retarded they don't understand the consequences of their actions, they need locking in a psychiatric hospital, but we are a bit short of them, so sling 'em in jail and leave the law- abiding population to a more peaceful existence.
* stuff like speeding, where limits are often archaic, are technical revenue-raising "crimes"...Should they result in an injury, loss or accident involving others, there are invariably a multitude of other offences that can be levelled at the transgressor, ensuring they get their just desserts.