For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Sooty25
#1650547
if you can overcome the horrendous loss of life and suffering that our people endured, you still have to consider it is only 12 years since we finished paying off our lend-lease war debt to the States.

Did we ever really recover?
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650549
The horrendous loss of life was suffered all across Europe and this last week has shown that many have a clear recognition of that and an equally clear desire for reconciliation and avoidance of any repeat performance.

Lend lease was the USA helping us because of our "special relationship" :roll: It was a necessary fudge because we couldn't match the German war machine and the US was neutral and also had lobbyists who would have been quite content to see the Nazis win....While we were working our way through lend lease repayments, the rest of Europe was benefitting from the Marshall Plan...…...
By PaulB
#1650558
Sir Morley Steven wrote:He was wearing a poppy on his coat.


Yes, I thought he was too.

Really people, there are many legitimate things you can hold against Mr Corbyn. Try not to make stuff up.


Indeed....
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By Pete L
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650566
I know we don't do politics any more, but it's the first time in my life when I've thought the Labour party was the voice of reason. Perhaps I'm just losing my own marbles though :D .
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By Leodisflyer
#1650574
I don't believe this was intentional, but it diverted some attention from a statement he made that was widely interpreted as contrary to party policy and on a subject that is subject to being tested in court at the end of this month.
By Leodisflyer
#1650579
Bill McCarthy wrote:johns - I was in my early twenties on the occasion in Germany in the 60s and they didn’t look like thugs to me. They were middle aged men AND women and they were hurling abuse as well, not that I understood a word of it, but I got the idea. Exactly the same happened in the Germantown area of New York a couple of years before. Looked like ordinary Germans.


Some years ago I was in a meeting with a young person from East Germany. He said that his town was unrecognisable as it had been rebuilt after British bombing. I said that we had something in common as my family was from a British city where 80% of buildings were damaged or destroyed in the war, that members of my family were killed by a direct hit and that my father was bombed out three times. I can't fully remember the next bit, but I may have gone on to tell him how my father's experiences motivated him to make a real change at the international level in influencing law at times of conflict and, more practically, working with UNESCO and various nations (he has a civilian medal for his work from one nation).

I also had an American person in California pointing his fingers at me in a fake pistol movement and pretending to shoot me just because I'm English (he was from Irish decent). It wasn't until I started travelling that I found out that the British, and particularly the English, are not universally liked.

Remembrance Day means a lot to me. It always makes me think of my Grandfather in particular. ex RAF Regiment: Juno Beach and, I believe, Belsen. Still regret asking him if he had had ever killed anybody. I was shocked by the answer and the clarity of the circumstances and his lack of regret. He had a poem of remembrance and a poppy permanently over his fireplace. The British Legion did a lot for him.

I really, really dislike tribalism and nationalism. I am also patriotic and committed to democracy and my country, Some might struggle to understand and reconcile those two statements, which is a real pity. Remembrance Day and poppies should stay the way they are IMHO.
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By jaycee58
#1650628
Bill McCarthy wrote:Yes, they had long memories. Matelots, when ashore in my day had to wear uniform ashore all over the world and I remember in the 60s being spat at in Hamburg with another shipmate being kicked to within an inch of his life. My brother was in Innsbruck (? spelling) with the Seaforth Highlanders in the 50s and he experienced very hostile reception.


Disappointing to hear...to me at least. My father lost both his parents and 3 siblings to a single bomb during WW2 (direct hit on their Anderson shelter) and, quite understandably, did not think highly of Germany. When he finally visited the country while on board HMS Kent in 1967 his view changed completely. He came home almost a different person and I can still recall him telling my mother about how friendly and hard-working the German people were and and how they were "nothing like the people who killed my family".
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By Leodisflyer
#1650649
Pretty much what happened to our family. Direct hit on an air raid shelter, only this one was shared with the street and the record dead lists multiple whole families.

I don't remember the generation that lived through the war saying bad words about the German people. Interesting watching "They shall not grow old" last night. The soldiers' stories, film and photographs all evidenced the way in which the soldiers on the ground were able to differentiate between the situation and individuals.

There was an interesting anecdote about the Saxons "they could have been English". I partly smiled thinking of many English people are descended from Saxons in recent history. Anglo Saxons largely defined post-Roman England up until the increase in the influence of the Scandinavians and the Norman invasion. What it that anecdote really reinforces through is the fact that we are all people.
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By Remosflyer
#1650675
I was there, standing directly opposite him.

My instructions from the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, who organise the Cenotaph ceromony stated:

Dress:
Dark lounge suit with dark tie; dark overcoat if appropriate for the weather.

I had the honour of laying a wreath on behalf of the Merchant Air Services, who in World War 2 were principally the ATA, in which both my parents served, and BOAC, who I joined from Hamble in 1971.

I, and several others present, found Corbyn's deportment deplorable, and his lack of respect despicable.
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By Miscellaneous
#1650700
Sir Morley Steven wrote:...there are many legitimate things you can hold against Mr Corbyn. Try not to make stuff up.

An understandable sentiment if not supported by reason, SM.

Sadly it is difficult to conclude that JC was not intentionally going out of his way to be an ****. Intentionally being controversial and disrespectful on Sunday has to be a legitimate thing to hold against him.
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By Flying_john
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650719
I think many of the views expressed here highlight a human condition that when faced with similar peoples from other countries we all get on with it and are friendly to one another recognising that we are all human. However when politics and nationalism get in the way the people as a whole unit get a kind of pack mentality which is hard to break. This is seen in War and often at Football matches. But when individuals try and make amends for a group committed crime, offence or atrocity, it is a very fine line to tread to make it acceptable to the "injured" or offended other group.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650720
If there were guidance notes on what to wear sent out to participants like Remosflyer (I have no reason to believe he would make this up) then it seems rather odd that Mr Corbyn (or his advisors) was not also aware of the same guidance notes on expected attire.
By Spooky
#1650721
jaycee58 wrote:
Bill McCarthy wrote:Yes, they had long memories. Matelots, when ashore in my day had to wear uniform ashore all over the world and I remember in the 60s being spat at in Hamburg with another shipmate being kicked to within an inch of his life. My brother was in Innsbruck (? spelling) with the Seaforth Highlanders in the 50s and he experienced very hostile reception.


Disappointing to hear...to me at least. My father lost both his parents and 3 siblings to a single bomb during WW2 (direct hit on their Anderson shelter) and, quite understandably, did not think highly of Germany. When he finally visited the country while on board HMS Kent in 1967 his view changed completely. He came home almost a different person and I can still recall him telling my mother about how friendly and hard-working the German people were and and how they were "nothing like the people who killed my family".


I had family on both sides of the war. Neither felt any love for the politicians leading them, in fact my grandfather [British side) detested Churchill at the time, although he later understood his actions and how his speeches provided much needed motivation for the country.

The media on both sides made monsters of the enemy so it’s unsurprising that people ended up with bad views of each other (plus the bombing/fighting of course) that end up ingrained. I saw a newspaper report (sadly cannot remember the name) from war time Germany suggesting allied troops were slaughtering and raping their way through Germany on their way to Berlin, with women bravely taking up arms to allow the German troops to retreat. I did search for articles on this however never saw any reports apart from the newspaper I’d read, so I assume it was propaganda.

I guess even now we see the media and politicians dehumanise groups and turn us against each other in order to further an aim. The images of the wartime ‘German monsters’ created by books, films, documentaries, school etc (even in the 90s)were very different to what I saw recorded at the time by the real people on the ground. The most touching image I saw was of a group of German soldiers stood respectfully next to the graves of both their comrades and enemy, each marked with a cross, helmet,rifle, and ID tags. It’s one of many images I saw that made me see the human side of war, and that these men would mostly rather be down the pub getting a drink together rather than trying to kill each other.
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By Sir Morley Steven
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650796
Miscellaneous wrote:
Sir Morley Steven wrote:...there are many legitimate things you can hold against Mr Corbyn. Try not to make stuff up.

An understandable sentiment if not supported by reason, SM.

Sadly it is difficult to conclude that JC was not intentionally going out of his way to be an ****. Intentionally being controversial and disrespectful on Sunday has to be a legitimate thing to hold against him.

Confirmation bias is easy to get. You see what you want to see.