For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1649988
@Flyin'Dutch'
Microbore CH came in quite a while ago.... apart from extortionate prices for fittings, the main objection was noise. The flexible connectors and single-hole mixer taps bought it to the DHW circuit.....not so long since, AFAIK you were only officially allowed a kitchen-sink tap , of the incoming Rising Main....everything else had to be via a break-tank, because, in the event of the mains pressure failing,it was deemed possible that water from, say, a toilet -cistern, "could" be drawn back into the main.....never heard of it actually happening, but , I have heard of a Water Authority poisoning a complete town, due to their incompetence and negligence.
but that was only 30 years ago and a mere 20 thousand poisoned :shock:

(Camelford, Aluminium Sulphate)

Putting radiators under windows. Another myth?
The reason used to be given, that it mitigated the cold-draught caused by the air-circulation from the higher heat-loss from glass. Given that most of the population now has double-glazing and properly draught-sealed and mounted frames (even listed/ conservation-area sash-windows can be vastly improved, thermally) Also add the fact that many a closed curtain went over the radiator, thus killing the convection-current in the room , which leaves you with only one surface radiating into the room....lovely warm glass and a big patch on the outside wall, though! :twisted: Short pipe-runs= quicker heat-up...radiators on inside-walls ,= heat is radiated internally, before escaping through the outside-walls.

We now have plastic piping, push-fit and outside-taps (albeit with a double check-valve) are allowable. Boilers are built, like the majority of cars and appliances, to have a relatively short service-life. At ten years old, most of these pressure-boilers will,or have, failed. The cost of repair exceeds the cost of a replacement, but, as @defcribed has said, it's the knock-on costs that overshadow the cost of a boiler. I'll stick with my 45+ year-old cast-iron one, until the gas-valve croaks and the parts -factors suck their teeth and say, "Sorry,Squire, Don't make them anymore and they stopped the service-kits years ago,......they lasted too long, you see". I think it'll see me out, though!.









i
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1649994
cockney steve wrote:
Microbore CH came in quite a while ago.... apart from extortionate prices for fittings, the main objection was noise.

I wonder if the difference between 1970s copper microbore and modern plastic is key? All copper installations I've had have suffered with kinks in the pipes (plus vacuum cleaner dents), which I suspect contributes to the whistling noise, impeded even flow and made it prone to blocking. The plastic stuff we've got in the Lancashire house doesn't kink or crush and is perfectly quiet on a sealed pressurised system, and three years on, can't fault it.
By Boxkite
#1650080
defcribed wrote:I've dealt with a number of plumbers (and systems) over the years but only have spoken with one plumber that I really trusted.

He said the following:

"If your existing boiler & system works and doesn't cost you much more than a service each year and the odd part here and there, then stick with it."

I think that's sound advice. Just how much more efficient is a new boiler? If it saves you £50 a year on your gas bill (will it even do that?) then it'd be around 20 years before it paid for itself. Hardly sound logic.

Apart from anything else, the sheer invasiveness of having major work done on the system will invariably lead to other problems appearing shortly after you're back up and running. Those of us who've collected an aeroplane from the engineers after major work will appreciate this point.

Heating systems are one thing that the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mantra really applies to.

Exactly the reason we didn't update our cast iron (with very few parts to go wrong) boiler. A few years back we had a quote for around £2k. We'd never get that back in the life of a new boiler. It would have to run for free for 5 years for us to benefit, and that's if we don't have to replace one of the teeth-sucking components.
And that's without considering the upheaval/redesign of the kitchen when the fitter says "you'll have to move the boiler and the pipework cos we can't use the current flue any more and there wouldn't be anywhere for the condensate pipe to go (which at my mother's was always freezing up).
By Bill McCarthy
#1650095
The boiler may well have frost protection, but that doesn’t protect extremities of the system, especially in north facing rooms or lofts. I installed an 8mm microbore myself, about 35 years ago now Oil fired boilers are very easy to maintain - I clean my one out annually and fit a new nozzle (a pressure gauge to test the pump output pressure is worth the money and setting this pressure is very simple).
I am about to change the boiler for a balanced flue condensing one (I know I will probably regret it) to an adjoining garage. We do get very low temps sometimes in the north and I’ve never had a problem with frost in the system.
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By Ben
#1650582
rikur_ wrote:What are the views on the necessity of adding anti-freeze to domestic central heating systems?

We've had a new boiler fitted this year which is external. The manufacturer's instructions recommend adding anti-freeze; the plumber says it is unnecessary and normal inhibitor is all that's required. The boiler has a frost stat, so in theory should fire up if its internal temperature drops to 2'c (unless we've run out of oil that is). The anti-freeze does not look cheap for a house of 17 good sized radiators.

We did have the pipes under the floor freeze in one corner of the house about 5 years ago, but that was an exceptional winter.


Not going into the YES anti freeze or NO anti freeze but with the 2c settings of the frost stat.

Frost stat should be set to 5c, i.e. if the temp. drops to 5c the boiler fires up for few minutes in order to run hot water through the pipes, hens preventing them from freezing. 2c is way too low as water starts to expand at 4c. So before you do anything else go and re-adjust that frost stat. then, you might not need any anti freeze.

Ben
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By Ben
#1650596
defcribed wrote:I've dealt with a number of plumbers (and systems) over the years but only have spoken with one plumber that I really trusted.

He said the following:

"If your existing boiler & system works and doesn't cost you much more than a service each year and the odd part here and there, then stick with it."

I think that's sound advice. Just how much more efficient is a new boiler? If it saves you £50 a year on your gas bill (will it even do that?) then it'd be around 20 years before it paid for itself. Hardly sound logic.

Apart from anything else, the sheer invasiveness of having major work done on the system will invariably lead to other problems appearing shortly after you're back up and running. Those of us who've collected an aeroplane from the engineers after major work will appreciate this point.

Heating systems are one thing that the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mantra really applies to.


Few months ago I have dragged a friend of mine and forced him to change his 30+ years cast iron boiler (Ideal Concord, heat loss between heat input/output was 12k/h). He didn't want to listen so his wife made the decision for him. When the work was done it wasn't just the boiler that was updated, the whole system had to be updated. The cost was about £5K. I told him that I don't know what the savings will be but I assumed 20% P.A. On his last bill the savings were 50%. He will get his money back within 3 years or so.

At home we have an old cast iron 16kw Potterton Prima f and am not going to replace it soon as the savings won't be large enough to cover costs as the average life of modern boilers is ~ 10 years.

Ben
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650600
Ben wrote:

Not going into the YES anti freeze or NO anti freeze but with the 2c settings of the frost stat.

Frost stat should be set to 5c, i.e. if the temp. drops to 5c the boiler fires up for few minutes in order to run hot water through the pipes, hens preventing them from freezing. 2c is way too low as water starts to expand at 4c. So before you do anything else go and re-adjust that frost stat. then, you might not need any anti freeze.

From the Grant documentation - the frost stat appears to be factory set and not adjustable - in some parts of the documentation it states that all Grant boilers have a factory set frost stat set at 5'c, and in other places it states that external boilers have a frost stat set at 2'c.
Looking at the part numbers quoted - the frost stat is an air temperature sensor within the boiler enclosure - I wonder if it is set to a lower temp on external boilers as the air temperature therein is likely to be colder than a boiler installed internally. Given the volume of water in an oil boiler, in normal use if the air has dropped to 2'c, the water is still going to be a few degrees warmer.

For now I've just put a temp logger in the boiler to see how cold it actually gets - if it starts getting close to freezing within enclosure when temperatures drop I'll go with the anti-freeze

At home we have an old cast iron 16kw Potterton Prima f and am not going to replace it soon as the savings won't be large enough to cover costs as the average life of modern boilers is ~ 10 years.

I'm fairly sure our Potterton Statesman would have lasted forever (or at least longer than me) - but unfortunately it was installed in a silly location, and after 10 years of convincing myself that eventually I'd get used to the 'whoosh' of it firing up 30 minutes before I wanted to wake up each morning, I reluctantly decided to get rid and get 30 minutes more sleep each morning. I did consider relocating it, but it was preferable to get an external boiler and free up the space in the house.
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By Ben
#1650601
Boxkite wrote:
defcribed wrote:I've dealt with a number of plumbers (and systems) over the years but only have spoken with one plumber that I really trusted.

He said the following:

"If your existing boiler & system works and doesn't cost you much more than a service each year and the odd part here and there, then stick with it."

I think that's sound advice. Just how much more efficient is a new boiler? If it saves you £50 a year on your gas bill (will it even do that?) then it'd be around 20 years before it paid for itself. Hardly sound logic.

Apart from anything else, the sheer invasiveness of having major work done on the system will invariably lead to other problems appearing shortly after you're back up and running. Those of us who've collected an aeroplane from the engineers after major work will appreciate this point.

Heating systems are one thing that the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mantra really applies to.

Exactly the reason we didn't update our cast iron (with very few parts to go wrong) boiler. A few years back we had a quote for around £2k. We'd never get that back in the life of a new boiler. It would have to run for free for 5 years for us to benefit, and that's if we don't have to replace one of the teeth-sucking components.
And that's without considering the upheaval/redesign of the kitchen when the fitter says "you'll have to move the boiler and the pipework cos we can't use the current flue any more and there wouldn't be anywhere for the condensate pipe to go (which at my mother's was always freezing up).


Many boilers come with 5-7 years warranty. I have heard very good reports about Viessmann boilers.
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650615
Ben wrote:Many boilers come with 5-7 years warranty. I have heard very good reports about Viessmann boilers.

10 years warranty on our Grant boiler - but I think the issue is as much the complexity as the build quality. Our old boiler was basically a big cast iron water jacket, with three baffles, a Riello burner bolted on the front, and a pair of thermostats. Modern condensing combi's on the other hand seem to be packed full of components to fail.
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By Flying_john
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650758
We too have a 27yr old GloWorm KFB boiler that I installed when we moved here. I have kept it running with an occasional repair and would be interested to know how Bens 12k h (? ) was shown as the difference between heat input and heat output, as I have resisted the change after doing a back of an envelope efficiency calculation between the stated efficiency of the old boiler (yes I still have the spec sheet) and newer efficient condensing boilers and came to the conclusion that until it irreparably breaks the efficiency saving was not worth the cost of replacing it.

Slight thread drift, but I see an announcement regarding Gas and Electric bills:-

"Ofgem has announced a price cap for gas and electricity bills and says the new limit will save UK consumers around £1bn per year.
The energy regulator is proposing a cap of £1,136 per year for a typical dual fuel customer paying by direct debit, and said suppliers will have to cut their prices to the cap or below."

My dual fuel bill is about £1400 p.a - so should I be looking to my supplier - if this proposal is accepted - to automatically cap my monthly dual fuel payment - or do we have to change to the standard (more expensive) tariff to then have it capped. It would mean no more worrying about stuff being left on, heating wasted, lights left on, electric cars charged all the time, throw away the solar panels etc etc ....

Can't see it working out that way, but what are they actually going to do with legislation like this, turn us into a nation of energy wasters !
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650777
Flying_john wrote:
Slight thread drift, but I see an announcement regarding Gas and Electric bills:-
....
Can't see it working out that way, but what are they actually going to do with legislation like this, turn us into a nation of energy wasters !


From the announcement:
The per unit level of the price cap for a typical customer paying by direct debit will be 17p per kWh for electricity-only customers and 4p per kWh for gas-only customers. Standing charges are capped at £83 for electricity-only customers, £94 for gas-only customers and £177 for dual-fuel customers.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-a ... -1-january
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1650780
Flying_john wrote:The energy regulator is proposing a cap of £1,136 per year for a typical dual fuel customer paying by direct debit, and said suppliers will have to cut their prices to the cap or below."

My dual fuel bill is about £1400 p.a - so should I be looking to my supplier - if this proposal is accepted - to automatically cap my monthly dual fuel payment - or do we have to change to the standard (more expensive) tariff to then have it capped. It would mean no more worrying about stuff being left on, heating wasted, lights left on, electric cars charged all the time, throw away the solar panels etc etc ....

Can't see it working out that way, but what are they actually going to do with legislation like this, turn us into a nation of energy wasters !


I share your scepticism - it probably means that the price for most people will go up.

The £1136 is probably for single elderly folks.

We all know that the big 6 control the market - that Ofgen has not yet found the evidence of that says more about their investigating prowess than the reality.
By JoeC
#1650789
Flying_john wrote: so should I be looking to my supplier - if this proposal is accepted - to automatically cap my monthly dual fuel payment


No. It's the standing charge and unit price that would be capped not your overall spend. This should lead to a lower bill on average and still reward frugal energy users. If you wanted to leave the heating on and the windows open you'd still have to pay for it!

Energy companies must be running scared of the imminent Corbyn guvmint and threats of nationalisation or they would never have sanctioned this from their 'regulator'.