[PaulB]

I seem to recall reading on here that if a retail credit card machine is enabled for contractless payments, then Apple/Android pay will also work. Seem to also remember that the £30 limit may not be there for phone payments.

The latter is true as I’ve tried it, but today I was on the M6 Toll. At the payment booth it stated that Apple and Android pay were not supported whereas contactless was. This is at odds with what I understood, so is it the case that retailers can select methods of payment in this way. (I didn’t try, as I didn’t want to delay the drivers behind)

As ever, just curious..

[rikur_]

I don't know the details of the M6 toll, but I'd hazard a guess that this is to do with tokenisation.
Apple Pay and others don't transmit your actual card number (also known as the FPAN) over the cEMV interface, but a pseudo card number known as a token or DPAN, which the bank issues to your phone when you enrol the card.
There are aspects of the Apple Pay transaction which are different than a normal EMV card - such as the dynamic cryptogram that confirms the DPAN was transmitted from the device that it was issued to.
We also had to change technology and business processes around ticket inspection - as under the old model, a conductor would board a bus and download a list of partial card-numbers (PAN) from the ticket machine and could visually check that any contactless cards matched a relevant partial PAN. With Apple Pay we have to take an extra read of the phone, and sort it out in overnight processing.
There are also customer support consequences when someone phones up and says 'I don't recognise that journey' - as the card number they quote you will be the FPAN as printed on the card, but as the transit operator you only ever saw the DPAN transmitted over the EMV interface.
Quite a lot of work went into making Apple Pay work on TfL - I doubt Apple would invest the same effort for the M6 toll.

Also - it is illegal for a driver to use a mobile phone to pay for something whilst driving on a public road (technically this also applies to McD's drive-through's).

[PaulB]

I think the “it’s illegal” reason might be as big as any.

Off at a tangent - what about cars with stop start ? They would not have the engine running and could well have the handbrake on too.

[Sir Morley Steven]

To much of a pain if you drop your phone.
Isn’t a card much smaller and lighter?

[rikur_]

I think the “it’s illegal” reason might be as big as any.

When the Humber bridge introduced Apple Pay there was a bit of media/social media debate about the legality:
Private roads used by the public such as the M6 toll and toll bridges (and restaurant drive throughs) do clearly fall within the law's scope (road or public place).
Paying by mobile phone falls within scope of 'performing any other interactive communication function'.
IIRC legislation is not very clear by what is meant by 'driving' and therefore it has been clarified over the years by case law (for example with regard to the context of drink driving), but you are likely to be classed as 'driving' whilst temporarily stopped at a pay booth.

The point about engine stop/start vehicles, or indeed electric vehicles, has also been discussed at length. I think it depends about how individual bits of legislation are drafted. (remembering that some legislation dates from an era of horse and cart with no engines!!). There is also some case law that concluded a person may be regarded as driving a stationary vehicle, even when the engine is not running – e.g. Jones v Prothero [1952]

I believe the CPS clarified that it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute someone for using Apple Pay at a pay booth. In theory the police could still issue a fixed penalty notice, but I guess you would just refuse to accept it, and rely on it not being taken to court due to failing the public interest test.

[Flyin'Dutch']

I think that you can also use apple pay with their watch.

[Leodisflyer]

You can use your watch to pay for things and it is more convenient than the phone.

You are not allowed to handle an electric data device or phone at any time while driving and the law also restricts what you can see on screen.

I searched for specifics, but is seems there may still be some ambiguity around wearables and, anyway, other laws apply if people are distracted.

[GrahamB]

The law is an ass in this case, because it can't keep up with the pace of change of technology.

It's farcical that you can't use a phone to pay at a toll both or a drive-through, but you can use a card or cash, both of which could require more fiddling about by and distraction to an irresponsible driver while on the move than simply picking up a phone and pressing a button.

[Leodisflyer]

Laws and tech rarely mix well IMHO

Its a mixture of rate of change, complexity and the dearth of politicians who understand technology or the modern world.

That said, we have a lot of laws that are not obeyed or effectively enforced. Speed and mobile phone use are top of the list. Others include bothering to pay for insurance, MOTs, number plate standards, stopping on amber and red, advanced stop lines, box junctions, tinting, telling the truth to insurance companies, concentrating and giving space when overtaking,.

Off to the gym now before I turn gammon.

[riverrock]

I think that you can also use apple pay with their watch.

Some apple watches are phones.

[Rob P]

.... and could well have the handbrake on too.

That's a highly optimistic view judging by the almost universal dazzling brake lights I encounter in every traffic queue as dusk turns into darkness.

Rob P

[PaulB]

Do German cars have handbrakes? Most dot have indicators.

[rikur_]

I think that you can also use apple pay with their watch.

Some apple watches are phones.

The law isn't specific to phones ...... the definition is:

a mobile phone, or a device, other than a two-way radio, which performs an interactive communication function by transmitting and receiving data.

The issue with an Apple Watch would be the definition of 'holding' - which isn't defined in the legislation.

NB: I think many of us break this law each time we start the car, as most car keys are capable of an interactive communication function (i.e. the stuff that gets transmitted for the immobiliser) and are in my hand briefly as I start the car.

[PeteSpencer]

Do German cars have handbrakes? Most dot have indicators.

My German car has a 'hand'/parking brake operated by separate foot pedal to put it on and by hand/ handle to take if off.

I never use it ,as in traffic, at lights a firm single press on brake pedal applies the brakes and keeps 'em on till accelerator is touched to move away which takes brake off.

This plus keyless go are the two most useful features which I would insist on in any new car I might buy.

Peter

[Leodisflyer]

One for the lawyers.

If you were to take the watch off your wrist (or any smart watch) then it would be clear cut.

Suspect that watch use may be covered under screens too. Broadly you can only use screens for navigation, state/use of the vehicle and for camera display of the immediate vicinity.

Explains why Apple CarPlay doesn't display text messages, but can read them out.

All rather academic really. If you have an office that overlooks a traffic queue, or simply look alongside or in the rear view mirror then a very high percentage of people seem to be reading and composing messages (although I did also once see a person on a dating app). Not enough police to enforce the law. 1m uninsured drivers out there - that tells a story in itself.

People don't seem to be able to live their lives these days in the moment and without distractions. We live in dangerous times and I don't think that humans will be allowed to operate machinery in a public place once the tech becomes available to replace them.