[rusty eagle]

Trying to find some data for a Toastmaster Talk on the arguments for and against Grammar Schools. Specifically, I'm looking for the difference in spend per pupil. It was significant, but I've lost my source of that.

Wikipedia states ' Although most students sent to secondary modern schools experienced the negative consequences of lower per-student funding than that enjoyed by grammar-school students, '

[johnm]

It might worth trying the national archives at Kew or the British Library for research papers on the topic or for government statistics from the time.

[Pete L]

Try Page 16 of this which has a source reference.

http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/444/1/WRAP_Brooks_9270464-170209-HistoryofEdarticlerevisedversionValBrooks.pdf

For raw data I think you'd need to look at County archives which I doubt were computerised then. One problem I did pick up from a quick Google was that most of the grammar schools existed pre-war, so many of the secondary moderns would have been new build because of the population expansion. That shows up in the variance of provision by area.

[kanga]

You could try a FOIA request to the DfES. Asking will cost you nothing. You may get the answer that the information is not available, but the Information Rights office will be obliged at least to look. They are usually very helpful

[rusty eagle]

Good idea Kanga - just raised an FOIA
Thanks Pete L - I'll take a look at that
John M - cheers, I'll try and dig those out

[matthew_w100]

Why not try a polite, direct request first? When I get one of those rude, demanding "you will respond within 30 days" FoI requests ordering me to spend time supporting someone else's business I try to be as unhelpful as possible, usually by taking the request absolutely literally. A well mannered query on the other hand, when there is some prospect that I might actually get a thank-you, results in a much more helpful interaction, to the benefit of both parties.

But then I'm old-fashioned.

[rusty eagle]

Don't know what point you are making Matthew? I've politely raised the question with the Department for Education, no demands made.

[matthew_w100]

The point I am making is that, as a frequent recipient, I find FoIs objectionable. I think they are a vital tool in a transparent democracy but that they should be used as a last, not first, resort. Their whole tone is "you are trying to hide something and I need the force of the law to compel you to reveal it". Where this is true, absolutely, FoI away. But if you're essentially asking a favour of a (probably) over-worked stranger, I think cloaking the request in legal compulsion is ill-mannered.

Furthermore, and I don't want to cause offence here, but I would suspect that an FoI request to the DfE cost the same as a week of free school lunches to a child to service. If the research has value that may be reasonable but it's a calculation that needs to be made.

[PaulB]

The point I am making is that, as a frequent recipient, I find FoIs objectionable. I think they are a vital tool in a transparent democracy but that they should be used as a last, not first, resort. Their whole tone is "you are trying to hide something and I need the force of the law to compel you to reveal it". Where this is true, absolutely, FoI away. But if you're essentially asking a favour of a (probably) over-worked stranger, I think cloaking the request in legal compulsion is ill-mannered.

Furthermore, and I don't want to cause offence here, but I would suspect that an FoI request to the DfE cost the same as a week of free school lunches to a child to service. If the research has value that may be reasonable but it's a calculation that needs to be made.

I’ve actually found the opposite..... when I have emailed a public body with a simple question without even mentioning FOIA I got an auto-acknowledgement email back saying that they received my FOI request and would deal reply within 20 days..

.... so I phoned them, and they told me to email them!

... and all this was when I was working in an NHS hospital and needed information on medicines regulation.

On the other side of the coin, as the receiver of FOI requests, yes, they are sometimes a flipping nuisance (and some are intended to be).

[matthew_w100]

Then I sympathise, and FoI may well be an appropriate escalation. Though it must be said, and I realise you were only using it as an example and didn't fully explain, isn't "information on medicines regulation" in the public domain?

[PaulB]

Then I sympathise, and FoI may well be an appropriate escalation. Though it must be said, and I realise you were only using it as an example and didn't fully explain, isn't "information on medicines regulation" in the public domain?

Some of it is, and some of it isn't and some is, but not where you'd expect to find it. In my case it was an EU doc, but was on the website of the national regulator that generated the doc.... but finding out which regulator that was was not possible without asking our national regulator.

Interesting that the UK currently has much expertise in meds regulation and the EU regulator is based in London. .... but not for long!

[kanga]

My suggestion of a FOIA request was because such a request would automatically be directed to the Information Rights Officer (every 'public department' at any echelon of UK Government must have one), and that office is likely to be in the best position to know where to start looking for your answers within their Department or Agency; or, of course, to be able authoritatively to reply that the information is not (or no longer) available.

[and, yes, I can well believe that some, possibly many or most, FOIA requests are annoying or silly or reflect laziness on the part of the requester. But I have always encountered nothing but courteous and prompt helpfulness from IROs dealing with such requests]

[matthew_w100]

I'm sure they are helpful .

My organisation has a full time team of three (one legal, one archivist and one secretariat) whose function is to collate responses and to bowdlerize my intemperate rantings. They are utterly courteous and professional. Unlike me.