For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1620258
Miscellaneous wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Noboxy should be labelled and certainly not incorrectly.

Agreed, however if I were fashionable and keeping up with those who search out reasons to be offended, and chose to interpret according to my agenda, then I could argue this post by an apparent self confessed Jermey Kyle viewer constitutes labelling. :wink:


I have to make two observations and share my disappointment About one of These.

1. You failed to pick up my obvious spelling mistake, which is an omission on your part and further more a blatant missed opportunity to berate me.

I am feeling discriminated against and quite upset.


2. I did not comment or criticise Jeremy Kyle viewers at all I just wrote an Observation I have made About the guests.


Should you have been a guest in the 'show' then please provide a link to the YouTube Video so we can acquaint ourselves with the Content of that Episode and respond according to our findings.
Miscellaneous liked this
#1620262
The Italians would vote to leave the EU but are being denied a vote on the matter. The far right are on the increase in Germany (again). It is no secret that immigration has had a huge influence on the change in attitudes. They too are all racists? Immigration is happening but alas, integration is not. That is where the trouble lies.
Leodisflyer, skydriller liked this
#1620263
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:1. You failed to pick up my obvious spelling mistake, which is an omission on your part and further more a blatant missed opportunity to berate me.

I noticed your error, I was being polite in not mentioning it. :D

Flyin'Dutch' wrote:2. I did not comment or criticise Jeremy Kyle viewers at all I just wrote an Observation I have made About the guests.

I agree with your comments re the show, my post was questioning Cessna's observations. :wink:

Bill Haddow wrote:@Leodisflyer had suggested, possibly somewhat tongue-in-cheek," Remaining means keeping EU citizenship and enabling us to continue to export the elderly and retired who need healthcare". I pointed out that this was offset by the welfare costs of absorbing migrants.

I too read it as being tongue in cheek and opted not to suggest that, as I understand it, when in need of treatment it's not unknown for them to come back to the UK. :wink:
#1620269
There is not a common, equal, level of taxation within the EU.

There is not a common, equal, level of welfare provision within the EU.

EU multi national companies will tend to have their fiscal base in the EU country with the least onerous tax liability for them. In their shoes, what would you do?

Poor EU nationals will seek to migrate to the EU country with the most generous welfare system for them. In their shoes, what would you do?

These are bald facts of life, as immutable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians.

Bill H
#1620286
I don’t think all Brexiteers are rascist bigots, I am sure they are not.

I have the misfortune to have 2 relatives that are.

I have a former friend that I have tried to have a proper conversation with about it, but when you’re talking to someone and they can’t be rational, it ceases to be a proper conversation.

“Well, maybe we do need the collapse of some companies, a weak pound and the NHS to not treat malingerers, plus maybe some should die of cancer rather than extend life at any cost”,

“what if that was your Mum?”

“That’s a cheap shot”

“No, really, it’s a serious question”

“No it’s not, it’s a cheap shot”

I think it ceases to be a proper conversation quickly with the ones I know.

It IS a problem for me that I don’t know any rational Brexiteers personally.

People keep saying “that’s just project fear”, or “stop whingeing”, neither of these are coherent arguments.

I am thankful I have no children. My mother in law will take care of my nephews financially (she’s a Brexiteer and actually says she wants to **** the economy, she wants high interest rates, has large amounts of capital, she’s not a very nice person, we don’t see her much)

If I had children I’d be beside myself.

Personally, the worst that can happen to me, I’ll not be able to afford to fly. That doesn’t mean I have no compassion for others.

It’s why I get so angry, a brexiteer cant have a normal grown up conversation, there must be normal coherent Brexiteers, that have thought it through, but instead, defence is the best form of attack, it’s easier to attack anyone that wants to remain than it is to explain why we should leave.

I don’t attack Brexiteers, “Brexiteer” isn’t a derogatory term, this is the problem, if I ask an awkward question, I’m moaning apparently, and the question doesn’t get answered.

anyway, we are leaving !

Though no one knows why! (Not even those that want to leave)
#1620290
Cessna57 wrote:“I voted Brexit to stop people arriving here from Africa.”

“You know Africa isn’t in the EU right”

“Don’t try and be a smart ****”


I agree it's difficult to have any meaningful discussion with anyone limited to such arguments, however I'd suggest it's equally irrational to lead your argument against leaving with such examples.
#1620291
Miscellaneous wrote:
Cessna57 wrote:“I voted Brexit to stop people arriving here from Africa.”

“You know Africa isn’t in the EU right”

“Don’t try and be a smart ****”


I agree it's difficult to have any meaningful discussion with anyone limited to such arguments, however I'd suggest it's equally irrational to lead your argument against leaving with such examples.


That’s not an argument against leaving the EU, that’s a funny aside that genuinely happened to me. :lol:
#1620293
Bill and Misc, you read correctly - slightly tongue in cheek although, as with many of these things, with some level of foundation in reality. My frustration is with the wider narrative of certain newspapers who attack migration and conveniently forget how we get reciprocal benefits. Many of us know people who are facing personal hardship and distress from the outcome.

I took Bill’s post as taking my comment to another level, but he was making a point by ping ponging simplistic back at me. Having read Bill’s posts over time I took it in that wider context, which is why I added a side note to Bill in my follow up. Very conscious that the written word can be misinterpreted.

There are a number of people posting on this thread who are on my bucket list of people I’d like to meet in real life as I think we would have some respectful and informative discussions -and possibly a bit of fun as well.

There’s a lot of sensitivity around migration which makes it a dangerous topic on forums. I dislike tribalism in its many forms. Our family has directly and indirectly experiened where it can lead and am seriously considering moving to posting under my real name at which point I will be able to identify my father who has received recognition for the work he has done internationally to protect culture in times of conflict. Something I am very proud of.
#1620295
Cessna, rightly or wrongly, it appears to me that you are guilty of the behaviour you deplore.

On this thread you have attacked brexiteers drawing on examples from family and a TV show, making reference to them being a drain on society and giving your (admittedly amusing) example.

And then you go on to declare;
...it’s easier to attack anyone that wants to remain than it is to explain why we should leave.

There are equally as many examples of youngsters voting to remain for hair brained ideas, but their existence and views have no place in the debate of whether we should leave, or not.
#1620297
I've yet to see anybody at-all rational, anywhere in this argument, argue against migration as an absolute. All countries and societies benefit from the presence of at least some immigrants.

Surely all and any arguments are about the control of immigration. The dichotomy of EU membership has been heavy restrictions upon immigration of often very well qualified people from non-EU countries with whom the UK has significant shared cultural heritage, whilst there has been no control over immigration from within the EU. I cannot see any rational argument for completely uncontrolled immigration, as even the most productive of immigrants will still require housing and public services, that can only themselves be grown at a finite rate.

Equally nobody wants to engage with the much tougher problem of Britain (and other countries such as the USA and Germany) leeching a limited pool of well qualified people from poor countries that really need them. Were we much much better at training people in Britain, across a whole range of skilled jobs from Physician to Plumber, then much of this argument would simply go away!

G
#1620299
Miscellaneous wrote:Cessna, rightly or wrongly, it appears to me that you are guilty of the behaviour you deplore.

On this thread you have attacked brexiteers drawing on examples from family and a TV show, making reference to them being a drain on society and giving your (admittedly amusing) example.

And then you go on to declare;
...it’s easier to attack anyone that wants to remain than it is to explain why we should leave.

There are equally as many examples of youngsters voting to remain for hair brained ideas, but their existence and views have no place in the debate of whether we should leave, or not.


Ok, maybe I’m getting my tone wrong,

I’ve tried to be very clear that I don’t believe all those in favour of Brexit aren’t like the 2 people in my extended family. I stated that I’m SURE they aren’t.

I also said that it IS a problem for me that I’ve found it hard to have that informed conversation I crave.

The Jeremy Kyle comment was simply pointing out that we have problems in this country that are nothing to do with the EU or immigration. I was attaching the people on JK tbh, not Brexiteers. I don’t know if they are for or against Brexit, but in my view, 4 children by 3 different fathers is a problem in any society, regardless.
#1620300
Bill McCarthy wrote:The Italians would vote to leave the EU but are being denied a vote on the matter. The far right are on the increase in Germany (again). It is no secret that immigration has had a huge influence on the change in attitudes. They too are all racists? Immigration is happening but alas, integration is not. That is where the trouble lies.


Having lived in an area that was subject to large scale immigration in the 70s I note that it doesn’t seem to have a current problem with integration or attitudes and is outward looking.

It wasn’t always the case. I’ll never forget one evening out with my friends. We were stopped by the police who kept asking me if I was OK and who seemed to have a problem understanding that I was out with my friends and didn’t have a need to send some sort of coded message to them to “rescue me”. It was a new experience for me. I was shocked and, nearly 40 years later, still disturbed by that incident.
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