[Leodisflyer]

@Cessna57 I think you are i the wrong place if you want answers to your concerns.

On the whole the debates on here over the last few years have been informed with people presenting counter views that have basis in rational thought. This place isn’t wholly representative of the wider world.

I live in a city, so don’t meet many people who say that they voted for Brexit (one of the reasons why I find this place helpful in presenting opinions).

Of those I have met one (very travelled person) said his reason for voting to leave was “why would we want to be in a club with people who hate us” and another said that his wife works for the NHS and told him to.

[Leodisflyer]

@Genghis the Engineer my understanding is that the EU allows free movement of labour, not people, it is the British implementation that has chosen to not place restrictions.

Skills training and not addressing the former industrial areas are real problems I believe. Two government policies that I take issue with over the last 20 years are:

1 - Changing the education system to get 50% of people into universities.
2 - Abandoning, or not building, strategies to rejuvenate the former industrial areas, relying instead on building a financial services (and wider services) economy with a view to taxing the banks and then spreadinging the money (and jobs) to the regions through public spending.

Both of these, in my view, have been disasters.

The first devalues degrees, ignores wider skills training, assumes one size fits all and has built a mountain of debt.

The second has resulted in fragile economy. Services can easily be relocated and there is a collective intelligence in the former industrial areas that says that the economy just isn’t working for them.

Both make it, in a way, unsurprising that Brexit happened. The irony is that the structural problems created by (2) makes Brexit all the
more dangerous in the short to medium term.

On the day of the referendum result somebody who should know about these things told me that Brexit may be OK for my grandchildren. I understand his point, but I don’t want my children to suffer the way that so many of my generation did when they hit the “workplace” in the early 80s.

[johnm]

There is not a common, equal, level of taxation within the EU.

Clearly not as each state within the union is an independent country.

There is not a common, equal, level of welfare provision within the EU.

See above, note also that an EU citizen from one country living or working in another is not automatically entitled to the same benefits as natives, certain conditions need to be fulfilled, but in the U.K. we’ve never bothered to implement that.

EU multi national companies will tend to have their fiscal base in the EU country with the least onerous tax liability for them. In their shoes, what would you do?

It’s not EU multinationals it’s all of them, which is why Ireland was, for a time, the centre of the data centre universe with Google, Amazon, Microsoft and others all based there.

Poor EU nationals will seek to migrate to the EU country with the most generous welfare system for them. In their shoes, what would you do?

It is not an automatic right of EU citizens to move to a country just to collect welfare benefits

These are bald facts of life, as immutable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians.

There is certainly an element of truth in these assertions, but as so often in these discussions, conveniently over-simplified.

Bill H

[Genghis the Engineer]

@Genghis the Engineer my understanding is that the EU allows free movement of labour, not people, it is the British implementation that has chosen to not place restrictions.

I'm pretty certain that the EU did not need to create a mechanism for free movement of people, because for all reasonable purposes that existed already. Simply travelling for leisure across Europe, or taking your money and buying a house somewhere and loving off your own resources has been straightforward through most of the world, since probably the late 1950s.

So the free movement of labour was the only change the EU had reason to make.

Skills training and not addressing the former industrial areas are real problems I believe. Two government policies that I take issue with over the last 20 years are:

1 - Changing the education system to get 50% of people into universities.

A monumental piece of electoral fraud in my opinion, whereby Tony Blair and his mob thought it would be rather clever to remove 50% of the population from the unemployment statistics for 3 years, whilst doing so on their own debts or family money. A piece of subterfuge that no subsequent government has been brave enough to admit occurred, as if they reversed it, it would look (incorrectly) like they'd suddenly created a step increase in unemployment.

2 - Abandoning, or not building, strategies to rejuvenate the former industrial areas, relying instead on building a financial services (and wider services) economy with a view to taxing the banks and then spreadinging the money (and jobs) to the regions through public spending.

Both of these, in my view, have been disasters.

As an engineer, who therefore tends to believe that real value is created by making, growing, or digging up things - I agree totally.

The first devalues degrees, ignores wider skills training, assumes one size fits all and has built a mountain of debt.

The second has resulted in fragile economy. Services can easily be relocated and there is a collective intelligence in the former industrial areas that says that the economy just isn’t working for them.

Both make it, in a way, unsurprising that Brexit happened. The irony is that the structural problems created by (2) makes Brexit all the
more dangerous in the short to medium term.

Also all agreed - but indeed the move away from industrialisation has also been part of the EU's neo-liberalist world view. It hasn't just been the UK government doing this, so to at least a little extent, it's not unreasonable to blame the EU for some of this.

On the day of the referendum result somebody who should know about these things told me that Brexit may be OK for my grandchildren. I understand his point, but I don’t want my children to suffer the way that so many of my generation did when they hit the “workplace” in the early 80s.

You could however, also say the same if you were a citizen of one of many countries being sucked into EU membership. Greek unemployment now, for example.

G

[nallen]

I'm pretty certain that the EU did not need to create a mechanism for free movement of people, because for all reasonable purposes that existed already. Simply travelling for leisure across Europe, or taking your money and buying a house somewhere and loving off your own resources has been straightforward through most of the world, since probably the late 1950s.

"Loving off your own resources" has a pleasing hippy ring to it …

But your analysis of free movement is flawed. For leisure travelling, yes, as you describe. But for living/working it was not so straightforward. Many European countries required permits that required jumping through hoops. Pension and social security rights certainly didn't transfer. Etc. Of course, that depends what you meant by "for all reasonable purposes", but for me the EU free movement rules provide options that certainly didn't exist before.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That was a good Freudian typo, I have to admit.

So what could you do post EU, that you couldn't before - accepting that jumping through some municipal and paperwork hurdles may have been required prior to EU membership, in terms of travelling for business and living in other European countries? I'll accept the point as being made that it has become possible to do things with less paperwork - but at-all?

G

[nallen]

Transferring state pensions and access to state healthcare was not, I believe, possible before -- I wouldn't be able to move without those. (And in my particular -- albeit niche case -- I wouldn't be able to buy property as Denmark -- where I'm heading -- doesn't allow non-EU citizens to own property; and in fact only allows EU citizens to do so in connection with full residence.)

[johnm]

You could however, also say the same if you were a citizen of one of many countries being sucked into EU membership. Greek unemployment now, for example

Not an EU issue, though maybe the Euro membership hasn’t helped, but we’ve had Spanish, Greek and Italian economic migrants since the 1960s just a bit less paperwork involved now.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Transferring state pensions and access to state healthcare was not, I believe, possible before -- I wouldn't be able to move without those. (And in my particular -- albeit niche case -- I wouldn't be able to buy property as Denmark -- where I'm heading -- doesn't allow non-EU citizens to own property; and in fact only allows EU citizens to do so in connection with full residence.)

Presumably people reliant on state pensions, who have the funds to own a second home in a foreign country, are sufficiently rare that nobody has ever bothered to even think about it?

G

[nallen]

^^^ Who said anything about a second home?

[nallen]

^^^ My UK state pension will probably buy a few jars of sild in Denmark, but without access to healthcare, I'll be screwed.

[JoeC]

Blodige indvandrere kommer herhen for vores sundhedspleje

[Genghis the Engineer]

^^^ Who said anything about a second home?

That seemed the implication, I obviously misunderstood.

A bit of googling says that if it's going to be your primary home, a foreigner can own property but you need permission from the Danish Ministry of Justice. As I've never tried, I've no idea how difficult that is to obtain, but presumably it's possible.

G

[Bill McCarthy]

One particular programme has had an influence on my way of thinking - “Can’t Pay We’ll Take It Away”. Nine out of ten, in the very least, of the people being chased up for debt are foreign nationals. Most renters simply stop paying rent, thinking that they actually own the property.
I have already related the story on this forum about my late FILs property being broken into by a Pole who then RENTED it to a Latvian. When we eventually had them evicted, it cost £40 000 to put the house in order. They trashed the place and ran up huge electricity and gas bills for me to pay. Can anyone tell me how I can recover these costs !! Now that really tainted my view .

[nallen]

^^^ Who said anything about a second home?

That seemed the implication, I obviously misunderstood.

A bit of googling says that if it's going to be your primary home, a foreigner can own property but you need permission from the Danish Ministry of Justice. As I've never tried, I've no idea how difficult that is to obtain, but presumably it's possible.

G

I have, and it's virtually impossible!