For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1817880
Colonel Panic wrote:My understanding of hybrids is that they are designed to save tax, little else.


Sorry, that's massive example of 'tarring everyone with the same brush'!

I ran a hybrid for three years, charged it religiously at both ends of my journey on my work commute.

I had zero tailpipe emissions at both urban parts of the journey, and zero the whole weekend.

The only time my ICE was active was on the motorway.
#1817883
rdfb wrote:.. car engines are unusual in that they need to deliver extremely high power while the car accelerates, but relatively little in proportion to that while cruising. .. The battery will take care of the high power demand of the initial 0-60. After that, a smaller engine is perhaps actually more efficient?


<naively ? > ah, a bit like Concorde needing afterburner only for takeoff and for transsonic acceleration, but not for subsonic nor supersonic cruise ? </>

[whereas Tu-144 also needed AB in supersonic cruise, hence its much worse fuel economy, AIUI]
#1817888
eltonioni wrote:Increasingly, electric cars look like a dead end too, as a stepping stone away from oil to to hydrogen power. A ban on new oil powered vehicles by 2030 without any real new subsidies towards electric purchases or infrastructure was telling.

Why does it require a subsidy to purchase an EV anyway? The money would be better spent on educating people of the benefit (nicer to drive).

A goodly portion of UK / Earth PLC in general is already set up for converting the transport network to hydrogen, whereas electric is, well, not so much. EV discussions are all about wringing compromises to fit into real world situations. Hydrogen needs no serious compromises for consumers in advanced economies.

My understanding is that hydrogen is unlikely to filter down to private cars in any great hurry - if at all.
Rob P, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1817889
An interesting suggestion, very much the position Toyota are taking, and who would bet against them? But nevertheless one that is still widely open to debate.

Hydrogen offers lots of benefits, and is a no-brainer for fleet users. Expect to see all your buses, taxis and UPS & DPD vans hydrogen-powered within the next twenty years.

But weaning the commuter/shopper/leisure driver away from the convenience of home charging (and possibly home generation) and back to finding a filling station again? That'll be a neat trick.

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1817890
I have abandoned the idea of going EV as I don’t commute and need a car for the odd day out in Inverness or a trip to Edinburgh to see the grandchildren. Alas, so an ICE car it will be, as by 2030 I’ll probably be six feet under or too “doddery” to drive anyway. As sure as fate, as soon as I get one there will be a breakthrough in EV range or hydrogen.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1817899
Rob P wrote:But weaning the commuter/shopper/leisure driver away from the convenience of home charging (and possibly home generation) and back to finding a filling station again? That'll be a neat trick.

Rob P




I'd guess that you and I have adequate private off-road home parking for our vehicles but a quarter of people in the UK live in terraces, another quarter in flats, a third in council / HA homes, a fifth in privately rented homes. There was no extra provision for any of them in the petrol / diesel ban so its not too hard to read between the lines that industry is expected to deal with it and it's aa stretch to expect indistry to bin all that existing infrastructure for delivering fuel to a vehicle. It already works, is convenient and needs regular upgrading anyway. Switching out to hydrogen is a cinch compared to finding somebody to pay for wiring up superchargers to every home / lampost / car park / inconvenient place in the country. I think we might still get to play with ICE Porsches in the future too :)
#1817901
eltonioni wrote:

it's aa stretch to expect indistry to bin all that existing infrastructure for delivering fuel to a vehicle. It already works, is convenient and needs regular upgrading anyway.


The challenge of creating an infrastructure to deliver hydrogen to the private vehicle is a tad more complex than 'upgrading' your local BP station.

Rob P
eltonioni, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1817905
There are currently 2 ways of making Hydrogen, electrolysis, using large amounts of electricity in an inefficient way and converting methane, which coincidentally the big oil companies have good access to, so see it as a route out of oil.
Every house has at least 20 EV charging points built in. Current petrol stations would need a huge amount of investment to switch to Hydrogen storage, pressurised tanks etc. Charging stations are relatively easy to build/convert from petrol, witness the rate of expansion of the Tesla Supercharger network alone. The charge rates available have massively increased.
Hydrogen might make sense for large fleet use, but for the private, average use motorist, batteries are the best solution!
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1817910
eltonioni wrote:

I'd guess that you and I have adequate private off-road home parking for our vehicles but a quarter of people in the UK live in terraces, another quarter in flats, a third in council / HA homes, a fifth in privately rented homes. There was no extra provision for any of them in the petrol / diesel ban so its not too hard to read between the lines that industry is expected to deal with it and it's aa stretch to expect indistry to bin all that existing infrastructure for delivering fuel to a vehicle. It already works, is convenient and needs regular upgrading anyway. Switching out to hydrogen is a cinch compared to finding somebody to pay for wiring up superchargers to every home / lampost / car park / inconvenient place in the country. I think we might still get to play with ICE Porsches in the future too :)

This is the thing which has puzzled me about the drive towards electric vehicles for private users. I have several friends who live in eye-wateringly expensive houses, purely because it is London, but they are old terraced houses. Very nice, and spacious inside, but because of the period in which they were built have no front gardens and no garages. On-street parking with no guarantee that it will be outside their own frontage seems to be a major obstacle to electric charging at home for them. Is it envisaged that charging stations will be like parking meters?

PW
#1817919
They seem to be quietly leading the way in Orkney with hydrogen power. They use excess power from wind generation for H2 production. Posties vans run on it and shortly, the Gills ferry. 1.5kg of liquid H2 for the vans and they’re away.
Tidal flow turbines placed in the Pentland Firth are up and running. Guaranteed 12kt flow rate a couple of times a day - more dependable than wind.
Rob P liked this
#1817922
eltonioni wrote:
.... I'd guess that you and I have adequate private off-road home parking for our vehicles but a quarter of people in the UK live in terraces, another quarter in flats, a third in council / HA homes, a fifth in privately rented homes. There was no extra provision for any of them in the petrol / diesel ban so its not too hard to read between the lines that industry is expected to deal with it and it's aa stretch to expect indistry to bin all that existing infrastructure for delivering fuel to a vehicle. It already works, is convenient and needs regular upgrading anyway. Switching out to hydrogen is a cinch compared to finding somebody to pay for wiring up superchargers to every home / lampost / car park / inconvenient place in the country. I think we might still get to play with ICE Porsches in the future too :) ...


I might be missing something, so I'd be happy to be corrected, but isn't there a requirement for very high pressures to store and move liquid hydrogen, I'm sure I've seen pressures of anything from 5,000 to 10,000 psi (350-700bar) mentioned. Although the locations already exist for fuelling outlets, handing a liquid at 5,000 psi is not currently catered for. Sure, there is a nationwide network of underground pipework for liquid fuels that already exists but the typical working pressure is less than 150 psi, which is probably not suitable for liquid hydrogen. I can see hydrogen working from local points of manufacture, e.g. generating hydrogen at depots for trains. I think making hydrogen work is more about the cost of supply infrastructure, the benefits of fuel cell technology, as used in cars, doesn't seem to be in question.
Rob P liked this
#1817923
H2 production is an alternative to battery storage of excess power. If H2 is produced overnight when excess power is available that makes sense more than battery storage and there is only so much power that could be used to charge EVs!
One technology won't be the answer, it will be a mix. Maybe personal transport will end up being a hybrid of H2 and battery.
We are very much in transition, it's quite exciting what's happening!
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