For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1838165
@Colonel Panic and @stevelup That's really interesting and much better than I'd expected, thank you :thumleft:

I need to start looking at used car prices and what sort of configurations electric cars come in. I'm still in the estate car, saloon, soft top era and need to try understand how they translate into things like SUV speak :oops:

I have realised that all wheel drive on EV should be cheap and easy at least. So issues like ground clearance need to be looked at.

A little study topic in the offing.
Colonel Panic liked this
#1838184
stevelup wrote:..

Also, the EV charging is an unattended process. You plug in, then go inside and go to the loo / grab a bite to eat and so on....


.. OK once one is plugged in. I suppose the question arises whether, at an en-route pit-stop on a long journey, the likely wait for a compatible charging station to be free will be longer than the one to wait for a compatible fuel pump to be free; especially at peak long-distance travel times like holiday weekends. This will clearly depend on rates of charger installation at such places vs EV purchases by such travellers. For business travellers, I can see that chargers at hotels at which they might be having to stop anyway (overnight or for business meetings), being presumably easier to install than fuel pumps, will be an attraction.

I think we've refuelled each of our ICE vehicles once in the last year :wink: .. but if it hadn't been for Covid, we'd probably have replaced the smaller, older one with an EV last summer.
#1838187
On the few long journeys I make, the charge times have usually been too short! I think people underestimate the amount of time you spend doing a quick "wee" stop. 30 min is a good estimate! They also underestimate the time it takes to fill an ICE car, prior to getting mine, I checked a few times and each stop (twice a month) was 10 min minimum. In my head I balance the numbers of 10 min over a year with a short amount extra on long journeys. If an EV stops twice, in reality that is probably only once more than an ICE would do, unless you have a cast iron bladder :D
How many times are you driving home and think "I must fill up" or are going on a trip/to work and think "I must fill up as I couldn't be bothered last night"? With an EV and home charging it's never an issue.
Just my "lived experience" :D
With hotels, EV drivers can already filter them by charging capability and now I wouldn't choose a hotel if it didn't have overnight charging (usually free/included) available. Tesla recognised this early on with their Destination charger program.
Flying_john liked this
#1838190
The infrastructure will get really tested this summer. Sales of EVs now exceed that of diesels, more people holidaying in the UK this year.

Once installations link to existing catering outlets in a wider range of places then there could be good money in it.

(The east coast of Yorkshire needs to get its act together. It’s a bit of a desert charger-wise, as is north Devon and Dorset.)
#1838238
stevelup wrote:The infrastructure is rapidly improving with more and more places like this planned:-

Image



That's an acre of tarmac and hundreds of tonnes of imported Chinese steel and charging infrastructure, all to charge 24 cars. Jeepers, if we think that's a way to address climate change we've already lost the plot.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1838254
@eltonioni of course.

"What does it cost in energy terms to bring a unit of energy into the economy? How much energy do you spend to get a barrel of oil out of the ground into a refinery, through a pipeline, and delivered?" said Eric Zencey, a fellow with the Gund Institute for Ecological Economics at the University of Vermont. Within the field, this calculation is called: Energy Return on Investment, or EROI. "Back in the 1920's, oil was paying off at 100-to-1," said Zencey. "It took one barrel of oil to extract, process, refine, ship and deliver 100 barrels of oil. That's a phenomenal rate of return. If you work out the percentage, that's a 10,000 percent rate of return." But that's not the rate of return today. Now, conventional oil production worldwide pays off at about a 20-to-1 ratio. And in Canada, where the oil comes from tar sands, it's closer to 5-to-1. "Renewable energy sources are paying off at higher rates, 12-to-1, 15-to-1, 17-to-1. That tells you right there, hmmmm, the age of oil should be over."


And that is before you start looking at the geopolitical benefits of being able to generate something in your backyard rather than having to buy it from dubious regimes and transporting it through dodgy areas.
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch' on Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1838255
Given that the retailer profit on petrol is very small, EV owners will pay 30-60p per KWH for fast charger. Bulk purchase for the operator at 5p plus your free solar, throw in a cup of coffee, doughnut etc as they’re going to be there 30 minutes, and it will make more money as well as saving the planet.
malcolmfrost liked this
#1838277
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@eltonioni of course.

"What does it cost in energy terms to bring a unit of energy into the economy? How much energy do you spend to get a barrel of oil out of the ground into a refinery, through a pipeline, and delivered?" said Eric Zencey, a fellow with the Gund Institute for Ecological Economics at the University of Vermont. Within the field, this calculation is called: Energy Return on Investment, or EROI. "Back in the 1920's, oil was paying off at 100-to-1," said Zencey. "It took one barrel of oil to extract, process, refine, ship and deliver 100 barrels of oil. That's a phenomenal rate of return. If you work out the percentage, that's a 10,000 percent rate of return." But that's not the rate of return today. Now, conventional oil production worldwide pays off at about a 20-to-1 ratio. And in Canada, where the oil comes from tar sands, it's closer to 5-to-1. "Renewable energy sources are paying off at higher rates, 12-to-1, 15-to-1, 17-to-1. That tells you right there, hmmmm, the age of oil should be over."


And that is before you start looking at the geopolitical benefits of being able to generate something in your backyard rather than having to buy it from dubious regimes and transporting it through dodgy areas.


Yup. That's scraping the surface. There's a bigger debate about onshoring with local production with short supply chains. If we accept that renewables is, in the main, the future (which we surely all do) then we'll technologise and commercialise our way toward it while enjoying healthy profits and benefits to society.

The geopolitics of pandemic will hopefully speed it up. Rare earth shortages might have a rapid effect too, I read that China controls 95% of rare earth production ATM, which makes the technologising a bit tricky if we're reliant on oppressive and expansionist regime for the most basic components.

... and industrial scale 3D printing.


In related matters, I don't feel remotely guilty at promoting greenfield housing development if people really do think that an acre of tarmac to charge their car is A-OK. We really need to wean ourselves off motor cars.
By avtur3
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1838281
johnm wrote:@Colonel Panic Our aeroplane takes off, lands and travels IFR or VFR and is mostly reasonably comfy so I'm content.

My main issue with EV at this point is that it takes longer to charge than fill a tank with petrol and I'd find that a bit frustrating on a long trip. If we get to the point where charging can be done in the time it takes to fill the tank, park, have a pee and eat a sandwich and drink a coffee then it becomes a realistic proposition and in fairness I suspect we're already seeing that getting closer to reality.


Enter the 350kW charger, which already exists, in theory that means that a car which can achieve say 3.5 miles per kWh and can exploit the full speed of these chargers can recharge at a rate of 1200 miles of range per hour, a more practical interpretation of those figures would be to recharge 200 miles of range in around 10 minutes, that is getting close to performance that I think a lot of people could live with. In fairness the charging equipment and suitably equipped vehicles are not yet mainstream but they do exist and numbers are increasing.

Ionity have a deal with the 'Extra' motorway service group which is seeing the 350kW charges being installed in banks of 6 at motorway services. A couple already exist others are in build. Here in mid Sussex we have the prospect of Gridserve opening their second (of one hundred planned) electric forecourts up near Uckfield in the coming months, they too will be equipped with 350kW units. I understand that Gridserve will not appear on the motorway network under their on name, although they have recently joined forces with Ecotricity to try and improve the latter's less than good reputation for providing reliable charging facilities across the motorway network.

This cutting edge performance is always going come at a cost for early adopters, but thankfully there are those who can afford to pay the price which means the upgrade cycle can begin and will eventually lead to a trickle down of the performance to more affordable levels.
malcolmfrost liked this
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