[Flyin'Dutch']

OCB

I understand the machinations that have lead to Brexit, Putin's re-election, Trump's election, Erdogan's reign, Syriah's civil war/gas attacks/current Western response, Orban etc.

That doesn't mean I can see that these are all slow train-crashes which will, very negatively, affect millions of people, a large number with their life.

What is upsetting that much of this is done in the name of 'the people' with the 'support' of the people. Have we learned nothing since 1933 at all?

[OCB]

Dutch, we have learned a massive amount since 1933, and even since GW1, 9/11, GW2 etc. When Cameron lost his vote on intervention in Syria, it was high water mark in British politics. The current May actions are retrograde IMHO.

I think you misundersetimate the moral foundation of the British populace - which is exactly what Blair and Co counted on, but completely mis-judged when they thought they could bully the nation(s) into abandoning those morals and taking out Saddam for dubious reasons.

Anyone who wasn't "on message" was branded a bigot for a reason, to "advance" the narrative towards a multi-culti "future truth".

The British, and many other peoples, shouted loudly and proudly that the bombings etc were "not in my name".

[Bill Haddow]

I cannot rely on ongoing access in the UK , mind you maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Would be nice though if I could see my kids every now and then..........

It was easier for us to travel in (Western) Europe before we joined the then EEC than it is now. Then all we needed was a UK Visitor's Passport, obtainable on the spot and over the counter from any Post Office at a modest price. There was also obviously a degree of reciprocity as Cloggies, Froggies, Sausage-Doggies, Spag-Boggies, etc seemed to have no problem travelling here. I don't see why post Brexit things should be much different.

There is not nor has never been a United States of Europe; anyone within the EU wishing to establish him/herself in a different country should take steps to achieve nationality of that country.

Bill H

[johnm]

There was never any difficulty travelling to Europe and vice versa in the 50s and 60s I well remember Spanish onion sellers and waiters for example. It got tighter in respect of working rather than merely travelling for a period until freedom of movement was re-established under EU treaties.

It's not travel that's the issue, it's work and residence and reciprocity on benefits and health care. One could work the tedious process of citizenship but as things stand I'm effectively a citizen of 28 countries ( a few limitations notwithstanding) without any forms to fill in and that's an immense benefit to many especially a generation that has grown up to take it for granted.

[Flyin'Dutch']

It was easier for us to travel in (Western) Europe before we joined the then EEC than it is now. Then all we needed was a UK Visitor's Passport, obtainable on the spot and over the counter from any Post Office at a modest price. There was also obviously a degree of reciprocity as Cloggies, Froggies, Sausage-Doggies, Spag-Boggies, etc seemed to have no problem travelling here. I don't see why post Brexit things should be much different.

There is not nor has never been a United States of Europe; anyone within the EU wishing to establish him/herself in a different country should take steps to achieve nationality of that country.

Bill H

Bill,

It is about much more than the travelling

And as far as the US of EU; whilst it may be a twinkle in the eye of some EU supporters/hardliners that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

The irony is that the UK is of course the most integrated state of countries in Europe, and none of its' contributories got a say in the joining at the time!

[joe-fbs]

Meanwhile FWIW the petition has passed 100,000. Still not passed the one about puppies. Interestingly, the top active petition is asking the UK government to get involved in stopping northern Africans enslaving southern Africans.

[Paultheparaglider]

I cannot rely on ongoing access in the UK , mind you maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Would be nice though if I could see my kids every now and then..........

anyone within the EU wishing to establish him/herself in a different country should take steps to achieve nationality of that country.

Bill H

I think Bill's advice is very sound. Anyone who is in a mixed country marriage should take the earliest opportunity to gain citizenship of the country of their spouse. Some countries - eg China - forbid the holding of dual nationality, but that isn't a problem for most Western nations.

[Flyin'Dutch']

I cannot rely on ongoing access in the UK , mind you maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Would be nice though if I could see my kids every now and then..........

anyone within the EU wishing to establish him/herself in a different country should take steps to achieve nationality of that country.

Bill H

I think Bill's advice is very sound. Anyone who is in a mixed country marriage should take the earliest opportunity to gain citizenship of the country of their spouse. Some countries - eg China - forbid the holding of dual nationality, but that isn't a problem for most Western nations.

Until Brexit there was no need at all to gain UK Citizenship, and maybe someone can tell me how my UK wife can gain Dutch Citizenship without living in the Netherlands.

If only life was as easy as the pressing of some buttons on a keyboard.

[Paultheparaglider]

Until Brexit there was no need at all to gain UK Citizenship, and maybe someone can tell me how my UK wife can gain Dutch Citizenship without living in the Netherlands.

If only life was as easy as the pressing of some buttons on a keyboard.

Of course it isn't that easy. And these issues do matter to those of us that face them. In my case, I have HK permanent residency rights, and my wife has full UK citizenship. Both took a fair measure of work to achieve.

Currently, HK allows dual citizenship, but China does not and has been recently clamping down on it hard, and these days where China goes HK tends to follow. We are probably more likely to face a real problem at some point than you are, FD. If anything happened to me, my wife would want to move back to her home country and to be near her family. If China make her give up her HK citizenship at some point, that would mean she couldn't do that, and would be stuck alone in a place she didn't really want to live. Equally, we may well want to move back to HK at some point, and there is every chance that HK will change the residency rules to pull my own permanent residency rights there. That is already being discussed, and bearing in mind the sad history between China and Britain, is a very real possibility. So, we could also be caught between that rock and a hard place.

It is one of the drawbacks to mixed country marriages that such problems can be a part of them. We get caught up in the politics. However, all you can reasonably do is cover yourself as best you can in the circumstances you face. And try to predict how those circumstances will change and act accordingly. In your case, FD, you will almost certainly be OK to stay here after Brexit, but getting your full UK citizenship would be a wise insurance. The day the vote went for Brexit, had I been in your shoes I'd have kicked off the process. If your wife can't get Dutch citizenship because she doesn't live there, and the current rules change as they probably will, then your options will be more limited if you want to move to Holland, although even then that is unlikely to be impossible. But if you both wish to stay here, then that won't matter if you get your British citizenship while you can.

Sometimes life is unfair in some regards, but whinging on here instead of taking the steps to mitigate the unfairness won't help you. And, snide digs at someone who not only faces the same issues as you and empathises strongly, but has actually walked the walk and is not just pressing some buttons on his keyboard in respect of the advice he is giving you is completely unwarranted.

[johnm]

I have every sympathy with both @Paultheparaglider and @Flyin'Dutch' and I think the key point is that we should be moving to make such relationships easier at a time when the world is getting smaller and more integrated.

In fact we seem to be looking to make them harder and nationalism and tribalism are having a resurgence. IMHO that is not a good thing for the future of Homo Sapiens, though I know others disagree.

[Bill Haddow]

Until Brexit there was no need at all to gain UK Citizenship

Nonsense. There was a requirement up and until our recent, thankfully temporary, mesalliance with the EEC / EC / EU

Bill H

[Bill Haddow]

the world is getting smaller and more integrated.

The world is the same size as it has been for the past humpty million years.

In the post colonial era the world's political entities are becoming less, rather than more, integrated.

Bill H

[johnm]

Many of us have friends and contacts all over the world and no longer need to sail for weeks to converse with them. We see no reason why they shouldn't travel, work or reside anywhere on planet Earth . Unfortunately politics is a couple of generations behind us and arguably going backwards

[joe-fbs]

Back on the topic of the active mistreatment of our fellow citizens by our own government, the petition has now passed the one about puppies.

[GolfHotel]

@Paultheparaglider and @Flyin'Dutch' sorry to hear of the situation you and your wifes find yourselfs in.

My father was a stateless person for most of his life. Living in the UK under the protection of the government to avoid the very real risks he and his other family would have faced if another government had known he was alive.

I have once in my life for about 2 hours met my sister and niece. He’s been dead for 40 years now.

The world we enjoy and the freedoms we have should not be taken for granted. I shudder at the attitude shown by some.


EDIT: I just realised what I wrote above is a bit misleading, he was my stepfather really, I’m fortunate to be British and thus am entitled to live here. But I’m not sure that without business and family ties if I would choose to stay. I’m Scottish by blood and birth, so maybe if little mrs cranky gets her way I will be able to get a European passport as well as the nice new French made blue one.