For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585281
H2020 and before it the various framework programmes is an interesting issue. It has been flawed in some ways - the overt integration agenda in particular. Some have argued, rather disingenuously in my opinion, that the UK should act like Israel and basically aim to be a parasitic seeker of EU money.

The last science minister seemed to be saying that the UK should bung in roughly the amount of money we have historically got out, and basically just buy into the ongoing fund and project. If that is where we end up, it seems unlikely that the approach will find many critics. I may be mistaken, but think that this is broadly what Switzerland does.

G
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585286
Frameworks is another interesting slant. As you will know Genghis JaNET was and is a pioneering research and education network in the UK and has been at the forefront for years.

Now GEANT has built an infrastructure to co-ordinate networks across Europe and has become the focus for EU wide framework purchasing g agreements for all sorts of related services.

We are now in the position where suppliers like AWS and Microsoft Azure amongst many others will no longer talk to individual country providers because they can do a one time deal for all with GEANT.

How deal with stuff like that after Brexit will be an interesting challenge unless we can continue some of those relationships which hopefully we can.
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By Sooty25
#1585323
johnm wrote:
maybe this will create a few more spaces for UK students to study, and build our nations skills base for the future, rather than another countries.


Trust me, there's no shortage of places, standards in some UK universities are now so low they'll take a trained monkey on a degree course if it carries funding. :twisted:

The ability for our students to study abroad and foreign students to study here is just a little bit important to our future as a member of planet Earth. My children see our future as part of a global interconnected system, so our skills and the skills of folk born elsewhere are all part of one big skill set in their minds.


we were discussing Cambridge in particular, not UK universities in general. It is fairly well accepted we have some sub-standard universities in this country and some pointless courses fuelled by the current expectation for everyone to have a degree or at least go to uni. Opening up spaces for British students at the top end universities was my point.

A neutral, global interconnected system will never exist while we have different cultures and religions. There will always be countries, groups, mindsets working to their own ends at the expense of all others. The UK may be on the list but we are nowhere near the top. Utopia will never exist.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585332
There will always be countries, groups, mindsets working to their own ends at the expense of all others.



There's no reason why that should always be true, always is a very long time :D and we should be working towards a better world by encouraging co-operation and collaboration, which doesn't need common culture and religion etc. just tolerance and understanding and a few common standards and aims.

Cambridge and other major universities have been international for a very long time and with good reason. The same is true of major universities in other countries.
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By Sooty25
#1585349
johnm wrote:
There will always be countries, groups, mindsets working to their own ends at the expense of all others.



There's no reason why that should always be true, always is a very long time :D and we should be working towards a better world by encouraging co-operation and collaboration, which doesn't need common culture and religion etc. just tolerance and understanding and a few common standards and aims.

Cambridge and other major universities have been international for a very long time and with good reason. The same is true of major universities in other countries.


my original response was to your post...

johnm wrote:Cambridge connections were truly global and in particular there was a lot of tooing and froing between the two Cambridges (MIT and Harvard at the other one) .

It's not the practicalities of Brexit that are of concern but the perception and attitudes it has brought. Previous partners in EU collaborations are no longer including the UK in future project plans as they did, fewer EU students are coming & they're going to the USA and Far East instead. That wouldn't be a huge problem (though it has an immediate financial impact in loss of funding) except that connections forged during student days often continue into careers and that can be a significant loss of influence.


Cambridge and the arrival of less students from the EU.

My response was to offer those few places not taken by EU students, to UK students, not make Cambridge UK only. It would still be very much international, and do remember, the international status of these Universities was built off the back of them being the cream of Great Britains Universities, no the EU's. International students including European students were coming to Cambridge long before the EU existed.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the global equality you dream of will only happen as a result of a global disaster or at the hands of some one like Hugo Drax (film, not book) . To voluntarily equalise all people would mean an awful lot of people, like everybody on this forum, giving up an awful lot.
To even consider a long term project such as that, you would need to initially stop the global population growth. In what are currently third world countries, you would need to enforce a mass sterilization program. Lets face it, if the starving of Africa can't realise that having more children is only going to make their plight worse, you are going to do need to do a hell of a lot to achieve Utopia.
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By kanga
#1585360
johnm wrote:The HESA data (extremely reliable) ...


(yet another) example of Gloucestershire excellence; HQs close to RAFA Cheltenham, and easy 'bus ride to Staverton :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Ed ... ics_Agency

[must resist mentioning other local attractions.. :oops: ]
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585376
I hate to burst your bubble, but the global equality you dream of


Not sure how I gave you that idea, I'm not dreaming of global equality, I'm a bit of an idealist but I'm not a nutter!

I'm seeking to minimise attitudes that look inward to the tribe and promote healthier attitudes that look outward to co-operating with the wider human population, while being proud of the culture you belong to and what it brings to the party. That doesn't eliminate the tribe, its culture or customs far from it, it merely reduces the degree to which they can be a destructive force.
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By Bill Haddow
#1585487
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
The whole scientific community has voiced their concern about Brexit


Nonsense. Unscientific nonsense. ( Unless you can show that absolutely every entity within the "scientific community" has voiced their concern. )

Bill H
By Bill Haddow
#1585489
Genghis the Engineer wrote:Actually the last thing British Universities really need is EU students, as they bring in the same or less money than UK students, whilst requiring greater resources to teach.

G


In Scotland the EU* students bring in no tuition fees, and enjoy (among other stuff) free health care without prescription charges.

* Bizarrely, students from England, Northern Ireland, and Wales have to pay tuition fees. Yup, students from Coleraine fork out, while those from Cork freeload. It is cost free for kids from Cologne or Capri, but cough-up for collegiates from Coventry or Cardiff.

It is something to do with EU rules.

Heaven help the poor kids from a country that proved to be a true friend to the UK, like New Zealand, not only do they pay but they need to get a visa.

Another reason for me wanting us out of the EU ASAP

Bill H
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585491
@Bill Haddow

1. The whole UK scientific community minus GtE
2. NZ true friend looking to flood the UK market with cheap lamb
3. UK sets visa rules for visitors to UK not EU
4. Ditto roles on tuition fees as does Holyrood for Scotland, 'free tuition and health care only where that favour is reciprocated
5. Apologies for delayed response,' had to dry my teary eyes for the unjust use of UK funds by EU students; I think there's a fair bit saved by UK PLC by importing fresh EU graduates ready to take the strain, after having been trained in and at the expense of their 'native' countries
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585498
This lot is worth a read, I'm sure I'll be told they're utterly biased, but their material is generally well researched and they have a very active Facebook presence.

Interestingly the only site I've found in support of Brexit hasn't been updated since June 2016.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1585517
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@Bill Haddow

1. The whole UK scientific community minus GtE


That's fine.

So far...

- I've won dinner from a Europhile friend who bet me that the UK would go into recession (we defined that as negative growth for 3/4 quartiles post the vote - of course we've had no negative growth).

- Am enjoying the sullen silence of all those friends who told me that I was talking rubbish when I argued that British manufacturing and exports would benefit from the weakened pounds post vote.

- Appear to have been correct in my original assertions that the UK's exit from the EU would be slow and fiddly, not a sudden and catastrophic change.

- And from these latest figures, appear to have been correct that there has been no exodus of EU academics from British Universities.

Even if I prove wrong here, which I don't think I will be, that will be 4/5. 80% is still an A-grade :twisted:

G