For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
#1584545
Sooty25 wrote:
if a family member had been one of his victims, I'd be quite keen for him to be released. I'd even offer him a lift home, but I don't suppose that comment will be appreciated by some.


A good friend of mine was the victim of a similar ‘style’ of rape. 20 years on and she stills suffers :(
#1584549
Sooty25 wrote:Sometimes, Capital Punishment would be appropriate. Sadly his suicide attempt failed, but the end result is no doubt costing us a fortune in medical expenses, before we consider 26 years of detention.


I was surprised to hear (admittedly mostly from partisan Internet sources) that - in the US at least - it costs more to enact a death sentence than it does to simply lock the person up for life. This is due to the number and length of appeals, level of oversight required etc.
#1584618
johnm wrote:It was all a lot cheaper in the 18th century when we could execute or transport people for stealing a loaf of bread and prisoners relied on family to bring them food and drink :roll:


there's a slight difference between steeling a loaf of bread and murdering, and admitting murdering, three former partners john, I'd hope even you can spot that. THREE, not even a one-off moment of rage, three separate women, someones daughters, even mum, or sisters maybe. I guess you'd like him to have a telly and internet in his cell as well?
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1584620
I was just pointing out that the cost is not the issue, being civilised we need to treat people properly. This individual is clearly a candidate for facilities such as Broadmoor, but we closed most of them because we thought care in the community would be cheaper
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By Pete L
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1584657
If I recall the numbers correctly less than 1 in 10 of people who commit a jailable offence for the first time go to prison. It generally takes several repeats apart from murder. Of those who are jailed, roughly 50:50 reoffend across all offences apart from domestic murder.

There are two reasons for jail: punishment to encourage pause before action; and rehabilitiation. Rehab clearly doesn't work so well. Probably because we run the jails too full.

That still leaves a fair number of people who will remain a danger to society until they're too old to pose a danger.

In a civilized society what do you do with them if you don't like the irrevocability of capital punishment and don't want to pay for more prison places without some benefit?
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1584669
@Sooty25 said
there's a slight difference between steeling a loaf of bread and murdering,


Of course, but in both cases, you'd need a cast-iron case :wink:


There are some people, who have no hope of ever fitting into our concept of a "civilised society" (Brady and Hindley come to mind, as does the re-offending Bulger-killer) Leaving them in jail is a form of mental cruelty. Exterminating the vermin quickly is far more humane.
The same applies to some of the religious fanatics who are not happy with their own, as Mr Trump allegedly put it, "****" but want drag us down to the same level.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1584678
Strangely enough I happen to know that Brady and Hindley came up at the parole board several times, but were unable to convince the board that no longer posed a threat.
#1584682
Pete L wrote:There are two reasons for jail: punishment to encourage pause before action; and rehabilitiation. Rehab clearly doesn't work so well. Probably because we run the jails too full.

That still leaves a fair number of people who will remain a danger to society until they're too old to pose a danger.

I understood protecting the public was the number one consideration when deciding if a custodial sentence was appropriate?

Pete L wrote:In a civilized society what do you do with them...

I think we need to consider what this so called civilised society actually is. How do you define an ever changing subjective concept?

In my opinion it is a term randomly thrown around particularly by the politically correct who have spent little, if any, time considering what it is. The idea we can create a truly fair civilised society is a tad ambitious. IMO we should accept that fact and act accordingly.

Acting accordingly would see the most 'civilised' action being taken with the victim's human rights being priority, closely followed by preventing the offender breaking the rules of our civilised society in the future.

It is not civilised to let offenders break the rules of a civilised society time and time again I'd argue it is better to break the rules against an offender.

I think there are large numbers of the law abiding rather fed up with offenders human rights having higher priority than their own.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1584689
A civilised society treats all its members with compassion and dignity. Those who are not civilised themselves may need to be constrained and confined, but still with as much compassion and dignity as may be practicable under the circumstances.

Petty vengefulness is a natural human reaction in many circumstances, but the whole point about civilisation is that that it moderates the less attractive human instincts and faculties. It is a thin veneer and needs constant care and attention to be maintained in good condition.

Civilisation is not synonymous with political correctness, which is in fact a threat to civilisation as it gets the balance of compassion, dignity, constraint and confinement wrong far too often.
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#1584692
johnm wrote:A civilised society treats all its members with compassion and dignity.

Whilst that is a commendable desire it is a fact that many of our species ideals are not achievable and consequently it is not possible for all members to be treated with compassion and dignity. Time to accept that and shift the loss of dignity from the innocent law abiding citizens to those determined to repeatedly offend.

I'd like to hear the argument that the taxi driver should be treated with compassion and dignity and released at the risk of other women losing their dignity...or worse.

johnm wrote:Civilisation is not synonymous with political correctness, which is in fact a threat to civilisation as it gets the balance of compassion, dignity, constraint and confinement wrong far too often.

Absolutely, that's a point I try to make.
#1584695
Didn't Gerard often make the point here that the thing about rights is that they are just that, rights, and that they apply equally to good people and bad people?
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#1584727
johnm wrote:A civilised society treats all its members with compassion and dignity. Those who are not civilised themselves may need to be constrained and confined, but still with as much compassion and dignity as may be practicable under the circumstances.


It is a very sad and deluded ideal that thinks that a three time self confessed murder is still considered to be a part of a "civilised society". Maybe you'd like to accommodate him in your home, with your family, obviously we'll tag him so he can't run away.

johnm wrote:Petty vengefulness is a natural human reaction in many circumstances, but the whole point about civilisation is that that it moderates the less attractive human instincts and faculties. It is a thin veneer and needs constant care and attention to be maintained in good condition.


Protecting society, the civilised part anyway, is not petty vengefulness it is protection. Protecting the civilised from the extremely uncivilised.
#1584741
Over a number of years it has become clear to me that the PC brigade and do gooders have managed to elevate the human rights of perpetrators of crime to the point where they are much more important than those of victims. Even once locked up there are all sorts of organisations looking after their welfare and ensuring they receive good treatment and care, whereas the victim is just left to get on with it. The criminal justice system in this county is severely broken.
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