For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
#1576746
It's common sense to fund the areas of shortfall more than those where there is; a) a surplus, and b) reduced level of contribution to society.

For example; where's the logic in continuing to fund any number of law degrees when there's already a surplus?

That courses should be presented to prospective students as being equal, IMO, is wrong.

I'm all for someone choosing to do a degree in whatever subject they wish, however having an expectation that the tax payer should foot the bill irrespective of subject choice is wrong.

My initial response was to FD suggesting funding universities from taxation wasn't without it's challenges.

As I suggested another consequence of undergraduates not contributing is the attitude they have to their chosen subject, career path and indeed education. If it's all paid for it's much easier to go to university, much easier to waste one's time there and also much easier after the degree to simply shrug one's shoulders and go off work as a waiter in a cafe.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1576774
Misc & G

I have no problem with people being made to contribute and take a stake but asking student nurses to pay 9k per annum for years so they can take on a hard slog and poorly paid job, when we are about 40000 short, seems stupid.

The various recent governments have been to keen for everyone to go to university and not enough on basic education and training people for other important jobs in the economy.

Hence the current mess and reliance on foreign johnnies (like me)
#1576776
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Misc & G

I have no problem with people being made to contribute and take a stake but asking student nurses to pay 9k per annum for years so they can take on a hard slog and poorly paid job, when we are about 40000 short, seems stupid.

The various recent governments have been to keen for everyone to go to university and not enough on basic education and training people for other important jobs in the economy.

Hence the current mess and reliance on foreign johnnies (like me)


Making nurses pay £9k per year is ridiculous, although I’m not convinced that the requirement of a degree to become a nurse is necessarily a good idea. My wife has just started her second year of nursing (thankfully before the fees came in) and reckons she has learned more from placement than the time at university.

The new ‘nursing associate’ scheme seems a lot better with a day release to uni and paid employment over the two years. I know they don’t qualify as a ‘full’ nurse, but I think the model of study is far better.
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By Genghis the Engineer
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#1576782
Correct me if I'm wrong, but nurses are typically paid £22-£28k

The present threshold for student loan repayments is £21k, and the rate is 9%


So your newly qualified nurse is paying back (£22k - £21k) x 9% = £90pa, £7.50/month.

Once their salary is up to £28k after a few years the repayments become (£28k-£21k) x 9% = £630pa or £52.50/month.

The loan is written off after 30 years. So, let's say a nurse graduates at 22 and rapidly goes up to the £28k maximum . She probably has student "dept" of about £48k - in other words £9k tuition and £7k living each year. Through life she will pay back 30 x £630 = £18,900. In total 40% of the actual "loan". From age 52, it's written off and she'll never pay anything again (unless, say, she took a further loan out to do an MSc, but the broad picture then remains similar).


That is the reality of the repayments of these fees and loans. The fees are paid by the student loan company, the loan is only repaid slowly, and often only part of it. In other words, it's a graduate tax, proportional to income.

It works, it's fairly fair, but it feels wrong to those of us who grew up before it with a concept of all debt as a Bad Thing.

G
By riverrock
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#1576787
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:but really, what serious degree can be done in 2 years?


I reckon Computer Science could. I always wondered how they stretch it out over 3 years...

<Light the blue touch paper, stand well back...>

Well I did a 4 years "internet computer science" undergraduate degree - as typical degrees in Scotland are 4 years.
Could it have been shrunk? Certainly by one year, perhaps 1 1/2 years. Its a bit of a choice: typical Scottish degrees are broader than the rest of the UK. The breadth of modules I took let me choose, at the end of my 2nd year, between single honours Physics, Management, Computer Science or Internet Computer Science. This breadth and flexibility means fewer students (than the rest of the UK) drop out or start again from scratch. Employers apparently also like it.
The Comp Sci department in St Andrews is (or just about - depending on which year you look at) the highest rated department in the country ( https://www.theguardian.com/education/n ... nformation ).

There is more than enough to learn about with regards computing - with key parts of it providing the skills to continuously learn (as although the fundementals wont change - languages, interfaces, techniques are constantly evolving which pros need to stay on top of.
I think I've used pretty much all I learnt during the comp-sci classes within my current employment (maybe not the logic notation stuff).
#1576790
One of the things that distinguishes training from education is the ability to analyse, evaluate and synthesise. These are what any degree should imbue, it means continued self- generated learning can take place way after the course has ended . Retraining, updating etc becomes part of the individual professional’s inherent skill-set.

The move from nurse training schools to higher education still contained the practice based element, but without the excessive repetition of the old style apprenticeship I served 45 years ago.

The associate nurse should of not be making key decisions about care. No doubt they’ll be pushed into doing that anyway as the qualified nurses retire and no replacement can be found.
#1576792
Miscellaneous wrote:Sadly having a degree doesn't necessarily improve the standard of nurses.


University produces academics, not nurses. Unfortunately I know of several potential nurses who have dropped out because they’re not academic and struggled with ‘writing in an academic style’, however they were fantastic on placements doing the actual nursing.
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By riverrock
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#1576795
johnm wrote:My experience of interviewing graduates from some universities leads me to conclude that they can just about manage a 1960s O level except in English :roll:

That should have been dealt with in Secondary school - and it often isn't.

Glasgow University now (has only been going a couple of years) gets all new students to undergo a written English assessment (there are different versions for science vs humanities). Those who struggle are given extra help (a set of extra classes to attend, followed by an additional assessment, then 1:1 help if required).

The complaints have been as strong within Universities as from employers!
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1576797
Genghis the Engineer wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong,G


You forgot the interest due and that with time and ise of income due to Inflation the repayment amount will raise and due to the interest Level this debt will not be amortisised due to Inflation.

Graduates already pay a graduation-tax due to teh progressive nature of the UK tax System and what is the of saddling folks with a debt if it is envisaged most would be written off.

Bonkers.
#1576800
Spooky wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:Sadly having a degree doesn't necessarily improve the standard of nurses.


University produces academics, not nurses. Unfortunately I know of several potential nurses who have dropped out because they’re not academic and struggled with ‘writing in an academic style’, however they were fantastic on placements doing the actual nursing.


I wouldn’t want my care decided by someone who couldn’t demonstrate analytic, evaluative thought. Unless I wanted to have the ‘usual care’ given regardless of relevance to my need.
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By Genghis the Engineer
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#1576809
I wouldn’t want my care decided by someone who couldn’t demonstrate analytic, evaluative thought. Unless I wanted to have the ‘usual care’ given regardless of relevance to my need.


I think that this is a universal thread of misunderstanding. The general public judges nurses by how "gentle" and "efficient" they appear to be, the general aviation community judge the various associations and authorities by speed and cost, students judge their universities by lecture time and ease of getting them through the exams, politicians judge A&E departments by queing times.

And in all cases, whilst these things do matter a bit, the real quality of delivery lies substantially elsewhere.

G
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#1576812
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:You forgot the interest due and that with time and ise of income due to Inflation the repayment amount will raise and due to the interest Level this debt will not be amortisised due to Inflation.

A family member recently had this letter printed in the Daily Torygraph.
My daughter has just started on the career ladder as a doctor.

After a first degree, she read postgraduate medicine at Imperial College London, meaning that she was a student for eight years. I paid for all her accommodation over this period, but she has accrued all the necessary student loans for her studies. The total £80,000. Yesterday she discovered that she is currently paying £1,400 a year towards her loan, but accruing £1,800 of interest.

Bonkers!
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#1576842
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Graduates already pay a graduation-tax due to teh progressive nature of the UK tax System...


I don't think that can be labelled as a graduation tax, FD. Someone earning the same without a degree has the same tax liability. On the other hand covering all tuition fees is certainly a tax on everyone.

Now I don't mind paying for services we need, however I grudge paying for those not quite sure what they want to do having a year or 3 at 'university' whilst they consider it.

Here's a couple I know of;

25 year old goes off and does an honours in textiles, on graduating she announces to her parent's it's not what she wants and do they mind supporting her through a music degree.

Another I know (male) starts with a music degree. In year two I'm attempting to have some banter and ask how many keys a piano has, Response is…I have no idea. Now I know nothing of music and the content of his degree, but I thought the piano was at the foundation of music. Anyway I digress. This lad completes his degree, just after several attempts, leaves uni, gets a job in Glasgow, lies about getting the sack because he was off ill and takes a job in a cafe.

I sure resent having contributed to those two going to uni! :evil: