[Cowshed]

For those that might be interested in submarine history from a different perspective “Iron Coffins” by Herbert A. Werner is a really good read (apologies for the rather inappropriate name with what is happening in the South Atlantic).

Until I read this book I didn’t realise how few U boat crews and commanders had survived the war. I read the book with mixed feelings, due to what the author and his comrades were doing, but it paints a vivid picture of the ‘easy war’ the German U-boat fleet had until it suddenly changed (in 1943 if I remember correctly) when the Allies achieved air supremacy and had the right sort of aircraft to cover most of the Atlantic. In the introduction the author explains that the eventual casualty rate amongst active U-boats was 93%. Incidentally the author commanded the last U-boat out of Brest. In fact I must read it again.

[kanga]

.. of the ‘easy war’ the German U-boat fleet had until it suddenly changed (in 1943 if I remember correctly) when the Allies achieved air supremacy and had the right sort of aircraft to cover most of the Atlantic. In the introduction the author explains that the eventual casualty rate amongst active U-boats was 93%. ...

.. from the time that the 4-wheel Enigma ('Shark' being its Bletchley covername) was introduced for use only by the U-boats until the time Shark was fully diagnosed and enough 4-wheel Bombes were available to enable speedy exploitation. The Sunderland, Halifax, Catilina etc aircrews flying out of UK, Canada, Bermuda, Iceland etc were never told why they should patrol in particular areas, nor why they were sometimes diverted to a new area mid-sortie, but they must have been pleased with the number of sightings they achieved. A sighting often did not lead to a claimed or verified kill, but by forcing the U-boat to dive they drastically reduced its speed, range and communication and so Wolfpack opportunities. So, in turn, Doenitz greatly overestimated the number of aircraft available to RAF, RCAF, USAAC, USN for maritime patrol, because of the number of times U-boats reported that they had had to dive after seeing an aircraft.

(one of my military history specialist interests )

Of all the belligerent forces 'trades' in WW2, the German U-boat crews had the highest proportionate fatality rate. 2nd was RAF Bomber Command. Both considerably exceeded the rate of Kamikaze pilots. This is one reason why Shark machines are much rarer now than standard Wehrmacht/ Luftwaffe 3-wheel Enigmas. Most Sharks are on the seabed in their boats.

[JoeC]

Recently read this



Very good account both of the military tactics and also the politics. Effect on those at the sharp end is also well portrayed. My Grandfather was in the merchant nayy at the time. His ship was torpedoed in 1939 after leaving Cardiff. Fortunately, for him, he was granted leave as my father was being born.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Atlantic-How-Allies-Won/dp/0241186609

[Bill McCarthy]

My late neighbour served on HMS Wild Goose, one of the sloops in an anti-submarine flotilla commanded by "Whisky" Walker. They had a high strike rate using ASDIC . Old "Bernie" was well spoken, but nevertheless slightly loopy. He said that crews on surface ships had some degree of chance escape but it was chilling to see the stern of a U-boat slip vertically below the sea with no hope of getting out, and knowing their fate. I can see how it told on him.
He mentioned that Otto Kretschmer was a POW at Watten Camp within sight of me here

[Lindsayp]

I recently read the story of a certain MN radio officer who survived three sinkings due torpedo attack, only to die shortly after the war ended in a ship that sank in bad weather.

[David Viewing]

Just to mention that the Americans have a captured U-boat in the Chicago Museum of Industry complete with what are apparently completely original undamaged interiors. The boat was captured in the Atlantic and was in danger of sinking with no power to run the pumps. They towed the submarine with the props driving the motors sufficient to get charge in the batteries and pump the boat out, which seems pretty remarkable to me.

I wonder if Bill could comment on this escapade and how an American crew knew enough about operating a German U-boat to pull off such a feat? Perhaps all submarines are similar?

Unfortunately this excellent museum manages to describe the entire battle of the Atlantic without ever mentioning the Royal Navy, and even less who actually captured the Enigma machine and code books. The guides, mostly ex-servicemen, are thoroughly embarrassed by visiting Brits pointing out this error!

[Bill McCarthy]

Most diesel electric submarines are very similar. There is not a common shaft for DC electric drive and diesel engine drive. The diesels drive a DC generator (per side) which supply those DC motors and/or charge the main battery. In the above instance, t
he DC motors will power reverse and charge the battery but I am not aware how they had voltage control of charging rate.
Nuclear submarines have AC/DC motors (one per side) to supply essential AC power for reactor protection. In normal mode the AC end is driven and the DC end is used to "float" the battery - driven by steam turbo-generators. If AC power is lost, the AC/DC motor power reverses (does not rotate the other way) taking power from the main battery to supply essential AC power.
On submarine Dreadnought part of the automatic feed water control system to the steam generators was copied from German WW2 warships (was about the size of a butter carton while the British equivalent was the size of the average washing machine!)
I am surprise about press reports that there was only a weeks supply of oxygen on the stricken San Juan - oxygen candles on board ought to have kept them going for weeks. Whatever the outcome, I sincerely hope that the RAF and RN keep up the search until a conclusion.

[kanga]

Just to mention that the Americans have a captured U-boat in the Chicago Museum of Industry..

Unfortunately this excellent museum manages to describe the entire battle of the Atlantic without ever mentioning the Royal Navy, and even less who actually captured the Enigma machine and code books. The guides, mostly ex-servicemen, are thoroughly embarrassed by visiting Brits pointing out this error!

When the film U-571 came out I received a very apologetic e-mail from a US military historian colleague

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141926/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[Spooky]

Just to mention that the Americans have a captured U-boat in the Chicago Museum of Industry..

Unfortunately this excellent museum manages to describe the entire battle of the Atlantic without ever mentioning the Royal Navy, and even less who actually captured the Enigma machine and code books. The guides, mostly ex-servicemen, are thoroughly embarrassed by visiting Brits pointing out this error!

When the film U-571 came out I received a very apologetic e-mail from a US military historian colleague

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141926/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Unfortunately a lot of people mistake Hollywood for reality. In 50 years time there’ll be historians telling tales of the Great USA and how they stormed the Normandy beaches alone to free Europe and how a single American led the English peasants against Prince John

Reminds me of this Robin Hood clip

[David Viewing]

Thanks Bill, it's really interesting. I was under the impression that the diesels were clutched to the prop shaft with the motors in line. I've no idea how they regulated the power but they did have control of the tow I suppose. They towed the submarine astern which is presumably relevant.

I would not want to endorse the calumny of the film U-571, but there was an element of planning in the capture of the Chicago submarine U-505 anticipating that they might force a boat to the surface. A much better film would have told the true story of what really happened.

The Americans were lucky, too. The crew had unbolted a sea chest cover to flood the boat, but left the cover and nuts neatly arranged nearby! An American sailor was able to recover them in the water and bolt the cover back on!!

All of which is academic to those poor devils in the S Atlantic. No more news, I suppose?

[Bill McCarthy]

I keep checking for updates several times a day but alas, in this instance, no news is bad news. It just goes to show how difficult a diesel boat is to find. The one U-209 class boat they had in '82 was our main worry. No sooner had we taken up station in the South Atlantic, we were settling in for a quiet evening with a movie when the alarm sounded with a "stand by for torpedo attack - action stations, action stations" which sent everyone scurrying throughout our boat. After several heart stopping moments we were given the stand-down - one of our hull ball valves squeaked at exactly the same frequency as their sonar - they would do one range confirmation ping before letting loose a fish at us. There was a decoy in the aft ejector ready to go. Talk about keeping everyone on their toes!

[Wide-Body]

Problem with one ping is that it is like tracer. It shows the shooter where the bullets go. It also shows the target exactly where they came from. Always remember on exercise the gentle whisper in my ear "to transmit is to die Laddie"

Thoughts are with the families of the ARA San Juan.

On all of Bills possible causes, my money would be on the battery to be quite so catastrophic.

Glad I went from Steel tubes to Aluminium ones.

[Dave W]

For those that might be interested in submarine history from a different perspective “Iron Coffins” by Herbert A. Werner is a really good read (apologies for the rather inappropriate name with what is happening in the South Atlantic).

I have just bought and read this on @Cowshed's recommendation.

An extraordinary book, and really brings home the reality of tragic events in the South Atlantic last month.

It is fascinating given it was written before the Bletchley Park achievements were revealed in the early 70s; Werner's confusion and disbelief that the boats were being found and sunk with apparent ease really comes through, and to me was a valuable piece of comparative history when put alongside what I've read about breaking the 4 rotor Enigma ciphers.

[Wide-Body]

Hunter Killers by Ian Balentyne. Find out what Bill’s amd my old world was like.

Secrets of the conquerer is also great. Find out why the missing logs had nothing to do with the Belgrano