[Bill McCarthy]

When it comes down to it, the EU says we can leave, but we must continue pouring in the same amount of money in order that the Continentals can maintain their lifestyles !

[johnm]

When it comes down to it, the EU says we can leave, but we must continue pouring in the same amount of money in order that the Continentals can maintain their lifestyles !

We do not fund continental lifestyles and never have. Continentals on the other hand come here and work for modest wages and ensure we can harvest our crops and keep our hospitals and care homes functioning.

The EU quite reasonably accepts notice to leave but points out that we must complete current contractual commitments and not renege on them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Re: those contractual commitments.

There's bound to be some bill to pay, and I think that quite a lot of it is to do with pension contributions for EU staff.

BUT, something that nobody seems to be telling us, and I would very much like to hear / read, is what benefits the UK will get in return for continuing to pay for these commitments.

If - for the sake of an example (that I'm just making up, I don't know), the UK is (considered by the EU to be) committed to the next 5 years of Horizon 2020 research funding - then there should be no problem at-all with the UK paying for that, so long as we continue to get the benefits of full H2020 membership for that period. And so-on and so-forth.

So basically (bar pension payments) the UK should have no objection to paying for these various schemes SO LONG as we keep getting the benefits of those scheme for the period we've funded.


And this is something that, so far as I can see and hear, nobody is discussing at-all.

G

[johnm]

That’s because the U.K. negotiating team are idiots. What GtE outlines is what Barnier wants to hear.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or they are saying it - just not to us or the media. If so, it's irritating - but given that both sides seem determined to treat this as an adversarial, not a friendly, negotiation - perhaps inevitable.

G

[kanga]

And the shame of it is that the UK media and our national politicians have basically hidden the accountability of the EU over the years because that has suited their purpose.

A further related issue is that since early '80s any one in British public service who applied to a secondment to the EU thereby compromised a future career in British public service on return. This was a result both of UK media hostility, and of the suspicion of some Ministers including at least one PM that any returners might have 'gone native'. In all other EU nations, a spell at EU is deemed to enhance a later domestic career. This means that there are now in UK public service far fewer people in senior positions who actually know how the EU works, and how all parts of its various institutions may be effectively but discreetly influenced. Those who did go to EU on secondment are likely either to have become permanent EU employees or to have returned to much better paid UK employment in private sector, where their EU expertise was highly valued.

This dearth of current and former EU employees of UK nationality means also that there are disproportionately fewer who have a personal interest in the EU continuing to honour their accumulated pension rights. Ironically, it was AIUI an ECJ ruling that accumulated pension rights had the legal status of 'deferred pay', and belonged to the employee not the employer. If UK leaves all jurisdiction of the ECJ, it will be interesting whether UK employees continue to have this protection from predatory employers who may look to embezzle such funds or walk away from their obligations.

[Bill McCarthy]

In these Brexit negotiations it would perhaps be a timely reminder that Britain partially waived WW2 reparations from Germany (Poland are considering slapping in a claim for 1trillion Euros) and while we're at it, remind the stroppy French of their liberation.
As for crop pickin' EU employees - we are too soft of with our work-shy unemployed and should warn of a "two refusals and you're out" on benefits.
I am reminded of Polish youths working in the soft fruit regions of Perthshire - as soon as they are allocated a UK national insurance number, they take off.

[nallen]

I am reminded of Polish youths working in the soft fruit regions of Perthshire - as soon as they are allocated a UK national insurance number, they take off.

With respect, Bill, you're making it sound like they are doing something dodgy. An EU citizen exercising his/her right to work/seek work in the UK simply applies for and gets an NI number -- an essentially straightforward process; there is no "trick" to getting one.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Despite being in agreement that we should be leaving the EU, and that certain people in Europe should be acting more reasonably Bill, I disagree with you on most points of that post.

- It was acting like an **** about wartime reparations in 1919 that arguably led to WW2. Nobody should be doing that again, or even raising it. Our European neighbours owe us nothing, nor we them.

- In my opinion the problems with getting a lot of our British unemployed back into work are substantially "other" than workshyness (not that that is completely invisible). If you are somebody on benefits, living in social housing - it may not be that you aren't interested in taking that job for 4 months 100 miles away. BUT, if you do, you lose your council flat, you've no guarantee of your benefits re-starting immediately the job ends (and probably have no financial reserves).

Solve these problems, make it straightforward for British unemployed to take these jobs - then start penalising the unemployed who don't.

G

[Charles Hunt]

Does the EU hold any assets eg parliament buildings embassies etc etc.

In a divorce the departing party should surely get a share proportionate to how much they contributed. Is this happening?

[PaulB]

It isn’t a divorce. We’re walking away and they hold most of the cards......

[JoeC]

I am reminded of Polish youths working in the soft fruit regions of Perthshire - as soon as they are allocated a UK national insurance number, they take off.

With respect, Bill, you're making it sound like they are doing something dodgy. An EU citizen exercising his/her right to work/seek work in the UK simply applies for and gets an NI number -- an essentially straightforward process; there is no "trick" to getting one.

Bloody foreigners coming over here and exercising their right to work, pay their taxes and move around.

We should do something about these people who get off their arises to travel thousands of miles to earn money and do the jobs that no one is this country wants to do then have the gall to apply for a national insurance number so that they can pay into the system. Bastards!

Ps: just to preempt the inevitable.,.official Govt statistics have shown time and time again that euro immigrants pay more into the system than they ever take out and that their predominantly young age means that they draw very lightly on health services.

[JoeC]

It isn’t a divorce. We’re walking away and they hold most of the cards......

My mum used to say "cutting your nose off to spite your face". Brexit, in a single phrase.

[Flyin'Dutch']

2 (rights of citizens and the payment required) of the 3 issues are very easy to solve.

The ball for those is squarely in the UK's court but the UK government is so scared of its own shadow (the Tory EU sceptics) and the Red Tops that they are unable/unwilling to grab those bulls by the horns.

The major 'monetary' bill bits are:

- Pensions of those who have accrued rights whilst working for the EU.
- Commitments agreed to as part of EU activity during the current EU budget's lifetime.
- Projects in which the UK wants to continue to participate and wants to continue to benefit from.

It would be my view that any reasonable person/entity breaking up a relationship midstream should just be big enough and face up to paying for those things. Let's face it, that is what the UK would expect if the shoe was on the other foot and according to the Brexiteers the UK will be such a thriving and successful economy that paying the bill will be easy and small fry.



Citizen's rights - do what you want with visas/borders etc what you like after the UK has left the EU but anyone who has moved before that should be able to stay where they want or return as they want.

The big issue will be the NI/ROI border.

I cannot see how that can be a soft border if the UK wants to 'control' its borders and there is no longer a custom union between the EU and UK.

If it becomes a hard border it will be very much big problem for the people living on the island with both the NI and ROI economies being affected adversely.

[Bill McCarthy]

The corruption, sorry, mis- spending, within the EU is well known and since there was "trouble" signing off annual audits, how can the EU all-of-a-sudden just pluck such a ransom out of the air.