For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
#1541377
JoeC wrote:
chevvron wrote:2. Some of those families probably (and illegally) sub-let rooms so it was overcrowded.


What a nasty little slur on dead families. Are immigrants just perceived as exploiters of resources rather than real people who want their own private space to live, relax and bring up their families in? Shame on you.

I did preface my remarks 'It seems to ME that'......... and the word 'probably' is clearly seen. I base this on the repeated claim that 'hundreds' have died, not just the official figure of 17, now updated to 30 thanks to Paul..
Me is me, you can disagree with me, it's your right.
0030 UTC I've amended my original statement to say 'Some of those families etc'
Also amended the number of 'official' dead.
Last edited by chevvron on Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:35 am, edited 5 times in total.
#1541379
chevvron wrote:I base this on the repeated claim that 'hundreds' have died, not just the official figure of 17.


Currently 30.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40300469/lily-allen-and-the-row-on-how-grenfell-towers-death-toll-is-being-reported

Why is there a row over the fatality numbers?

Many people on social media are speculating that the media, which is still reporting the confirmed death toll as 30, 'know' that the true number is much higher but are not publishing actual numbers.

It is up to the Metropolitan Police to release the number to the media and the public.

Media outlets report what is officially known as soon as they hear.

Why does the media stick to the police line?

There are several reasons why the media is very reluctant to put out any other number when it comes to confirmed deaths.

Firstly, they want to be accurate. Speculating on a high fatality figure when there is no way to be absolutely certain of that number could cause problems, for example, by worrying the public.

The police also have a responsibility to be accurate. In this case, they have given an indication that they think the number will rise beyond 30 deaths - but they would not speculate on an exact number because the final death toll could be very different to anything they speculate.

According to the Met Police's Major Incident Procedure Manual, "there should be no speculation on fatality figures and the police should only confirm the number of dead after they have a true and accurate picture.

"Confirmed fatality figures may only be released after consultation with Police Gold."
#1541388
To be honest, I'd not seen the reporting on the TV until earlier today, when I watched about 5 mins of a press conference with members of the public present.

I turned the TV off when they started giving the firefighter a hard time.

He basically said "we threw everything we have at it, we had 40 appliances there, it moved so fast we couldn't do any more, we had firefighters running into a burning building, we did everything we could, seriously, EVERYTHING"

(I'm paraphrasing)

He was still being given a hard time.

This made me quite angry, they think the firefighters didn't put enough effort in ? ffs, seriously FFS, makes me want to start a riot of my own.
#1541389
It's not right, but I can sort of understand it..... Hundreds of people have lost *everything*. One woman was quoted as saying that her only possessions were the T-shirt and knickers that she was wearing when she escaped from the building.

The full horror of this event has yet to fully manifest its self, but the response of the Government and the council has been nothing short of appalling. Far too little, far too late. Yes there may well be some jumping on bandwagons but that always happens at times like this and doesn't lessen the suffering of those affected.

May is surely now, as her Mr Osborne suggested last week, a dead woman walking as normally loyal newspapers desert her. (eg Matthew Parris in The Times and an opinion piece in the Telegraph.)

Even the Queen managed to meet victims before Theresa May did! May's performance on Newsnight (she turned up at the BBC with almost no warning) was lamentable.... truly awful - see excerpts above or the full interview on iPlayer.
karlbown, avtur3 liked this
#1541392
Cessna57 wrote:To be honest, I'd not seen the reporting on the TV until earlier today, when I watched about 5 mins of a press conference with members of the public present.

I turned the TV off when they started giving the firefighter a hard time.

He basically said "we threw everything we have at it, we had 40 appliances there, it moved so fast we couldn't do any more, we had firefighters running into a burning building, we did everything we could, seriously, EVERYTHING"

(I'm paraphrasing)

He was still being given a hard time.

This made me quite angry, they think the firefighters didn't put enough effort in ? ffs, seriously FFS, makes me want to start a riot of my own.

Didn't see it myself but I did see a shot of about 50 firefighters taking a well earned break - they're the real heros of the episode and I hope they get well rewarded.
I know it's a bit different but we are avid watchers of 'Chicago Fire' on Freeview 21; you see there the diverse problems these guys and gals face including members of the public slagging them off and it seems to be similar over here.
#1541432
PaulB wrote:the response of the Government and the council has been nothing short of appalling. Far too little, far too late.


Apart from putting people up in hotels and trying to find them alternative housing ASAP, what else do you think they should be doing? There have been more donations of clothes and food from the public than they know what to do with.

PaulB wrote:Yes there may well be some jumping on bandwagons but that always happens at times like this and doesn't lessen the suffering of those affected.


No, but it's a horrible vile thing to do, to exploit the suffering of people for political ends while people are still missing, while people are currently trying to make sense of what's happened with their homes and possessions and where to turn next.

Regarding the emergency services, a crowd fund was set up to raise £1000 to put a tab behind the bar for the workers involved in helping those injured in the Manchester bombing. They've raised £13000!

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/buythemadrink
http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/29/people-wanting-to-buy-a-pint-for-manchester-999-workers-raise-13000-6668864/
MikeB, Dave W liked this
#1541443
It needs leadership, co-ordination and organisation. It needed that from day 1 (from the second anyone saw the news footage, it was clear that it was already a major disaster) not day 3 or 4 or.....
AFSAG liked this
#1541444
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
No, but it's a horrible vile thing to do, to exploit the suffering of people for political ends while people are still missing, while people are currently trying to make sense of what's happened with their homes and possessions and where to turn next.

That's Marxism writ large. These are dangous times if we don't pay close attention.
Dave W liked this
#1541447
eltonioni wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
No, but it's a horrible vile thing to do, to exploit the suffering of people for political ends while people are still missing, while people are currently trying to make sense of what's happened with their homes and possessions and where to turn next.

That's Marxism writ large. These are dangous times if we don't pay close attention.

And is what 'red' Jeremy has blatantly been doing.
Sky News reports '70 missing' now.
eltonioni liked this
#1541449
Robin500 wrote:The BBC have sunk to new lows, they may as well have incited rioting with their style of biased anti government reporting.


In fairness they are usually anti-government of whatever persuasion, it's just that they're not very good at it so their "probing questions" usually probe matters of no real importance.
#1541453
PaulB wrote:Even the Queen managed to meet victims before Theresa May did!

Which government team is the Queen leading?
On the wider issue a friend suggested that the climate agenda may have something to do with the refub carried out.
And as you know, if someone tells our politicains that we have signed up, we have to implement the directive! come what may.
#1541460
A couple of points: Marxism is an economic philosophy primarily, Leninism is what takes it into the realms of socialist direct action and the basis of the Soviet Union</pedant>

Climate change imperatives may well have a driven the requirement to clad buildings to improve insulation, but that cladding can be fitted using materials and methods that aren't a major fire risk AFAIK.
#1541468
Paul_Sengupta wrote:. ...
it's a horrible vile thing to do, to exploit the suffering of people for political ends while people are still missing, while people are currently trying to make sense of what's happened with their homes and possessions and where to turn next.



This is the aspect of this situation that has shocked and sickened me. All sorts of people have been making political capital out of the situation.

Well that and the realisation that these tower blocks can be, quite literally, death traps. Clearly how that has come about needs investigation. But we need to act fast to ensure any other similar blocks are sorted out, asap.