For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
By Spooky
#1521205
My ex-girlfriend's surname had an ö. Due to the inability of admin staff at the council to find the umlaut it was written 'oe' instead (still correct)

I seem to remember that a few years back, Germany wanted to lose the umlauts, scharfes etc to make it easier for foreigners to learn the language.

Edited to remove name. She was a nutter and don't want her tracking me down again :shock:
User avatar
By Grelly
#1521218
I once read a defense of accented characters which (basically) suggested that most modern languages have 26 letters to represent about 40 distinctly different sounds. In English the letter 'c' can be pronounced "see" (as in "receive" , or "k" as in "because". Accents make it possible to have a consistent rule.
By amblikai
#1521219
Interestingly, when i first saw the diagram in PaulB's original post i was surprised there wasn't a thicker line between Finnish/Estonian and Hungarian. Simply because i think that is where the "Ugric" part comes from in Finno-Ugric. There's supposed to be some root there.

I used to live in Estonia and speak a good bit of Estonian, though not as much as i used to, and i don't see the similarity to Hungarian myself.

Regarding Scots though, the Scandinavian influence can be seen quite clearly in a lot of our words.
A good example being the swedish word for "good" - Bra (pronounced loosely like "Braw").
By GAFlyer4Fun
#1521223
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
PaulB wrote:What about the "little circle" above (often) letter A's in Scandi languages?


å

That's pronounced "aw". "Can I have an ice-cream?" "No." "Aw!"

:lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By kanga
#1521225
PaulB wrote:..e New Yorker article ..co-operation was spelled twice with an umlaut.
.. I guess I hoping that @kanga might see this post! :-)

What about the "little circle" above (often) letter A's in Scandi languages?

..

https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/l ... of-europe/

Image

So how does Finnish end up so closely related to Hungarian?


flattered, I think :oops: Certainly languages and language differences are a(nother) nerdish interest of mine, in a strictly amateur way. I have never been employed as a libguist, but never had a job (nor hobby, including aviation) where I have not used my languages.

I have known many very scholarly Americans; but have also often seen amusingly incompetent attempts at appearing scholarly by Americans who thereby demonstrate that they are not, including use of a diaeresis [sic, not an umlaut] in 'coordination', a solecism which I had seen before. Of course, it is their language; but feq Americans seem to realise that it is actually different from the English (written and spoken) of the rest of the anglophone world (including nearby Canada).

Others have admirably answered on the questions of diacritics on vowels in the Nordic IE languages. Of course, one can also get them on vowels and consonants in other IE Latin-script languages, and in non-IE languages, and in IE languages in other scripts (which may then have their own variants: modern Russian Cyrillic is not the same character-set as modern Serbian Cyrillic), and in non-IE languages in other scripts (basic Arabic script, which has limited diacritics of various sorts, is enhanced by further and mutually different diacritics for Ottoman, Farsi, Urdu, ..).

On definte articles, mentioned by another Forumite: Latin did not have them, but Classical Greek did. Most modern Romance langages (derived from Latin) do, but Romanian does not. Romanian, like the 'distant cousin of Romance', related to classical Illyrian) Albanian, indicates definite nouns by postposition (changing noun endings). Also postpositive are Macedonian (probably the contemporary Slavonic closest to ancient forms) and Swedish among IE languages, and Hungarian among the Finno-Ugric (same may be true of Finnish/Estonian, not in my repertoire :oops: ). Other modern Slavonics have no definite article except for Bulgarian which does.

Hungarian is like the other Finno-Ugrics in both some vocabulary (showing cognateness) and in having agglutination and vowel harmony. Both the latter are also found in the Turkics, which are not cognate to the Finno-Ugrics. The Turkic peoples all came from a migration which started in what is now approximately Kyrgyzstan; I believe that the Finno-Ugrics probably had a common analogous origin in North-Central Siberia.

There are of course limited numbers of ways of expressing ideas by juxtapositions or inflexions, so it is not surprising that wholly separate languages end up using the same quirks. The only genuine surviving West European isolate, Basque, has ergative verbs, in which the relations between the main other words in the sentence are shown only by endings of the (usually auxiliary) verb. The nearest other languages with ergatives are in the Caucasus, eg Georgian. And many North American indigenous languages have ergatives.

All great fun (for me) and probably desperately boring for most others. .. :)

[the languages my knowledge of which has most surprised visitors to JAM have probably been Hungarian, Basque and Maltese :) ]
OCB, 2Donkeys liked this
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1521226
amblikai wrote:Regarding Scots though, the Scandinavian influence can be seen quite clearly in a lot of our words.
A good example being the swedish word for "good" - Bra (pronounced loosely like "Braw").


Child. Barn = Bairn.

But don't underestimate the influences on English either.
By amblikai
#1521233
Kanga, a very interesting post, thanks! I'm no language geek but i do find languages absolutely fascinating.

I'm not sure i can confirm or deny whether Estonian is "postpositive" since i just learned the term, but it is a very cool language which i'm sure would be interesting to you! (No future tense, no real gender, 14 cases, 2 infinitive forms and 9 vowels).

Also, the Czech phrase with no vowels, "strč prst skrz krk" has its opposite in Estonian (most vowels): "Kuuuurija töööö jäääärsel teeeendil".
kanga liked this
User avatar
By Josh
#1521257
No accents involved, but a chance to remind you all of my favourite English sentence to parse:

Dogs dogs dog dog dogs.

Cognate with badgers badgers badger badger badgers.
User avatar
By Rob L
#1521284
Spooky wrote:My ex-girlfriend's surname had an ö. ...


Oh dear, I hope I misinterpreted that. Perhaps her maiden surname still has an ö? Or are you up for life? :mrgreen:
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1521290
but feq Americans seem to realise that it is actually different from the English (written and spoken) of the rest of the anglophone world (including nearby Canada).


Bit harsh, but , with the demise of the British Empire, the fequers have taken over. :lol:

Great post, wish I was bright enough to understand half of it.
User avatar
By Rob L
#1521304
Josh wrote:No accents involved, but a chance to remind you all of my favourite English sentence to parse:
Dogs dogs dog dog dogs.
Cognate with badgers badgers badger badger badgers.


In a similar vein:
Martin Gardner wrote 'I want to put a hyphen between the words Fish and And and And and Chips in my Fish-And-Chips sign'.



But he also wrote: "have been clearer if quotation marks had been placed before Fish, and between Fish and and, and and and And, and And and and, and and and And, and And and and, and and and Chips, as well as after Chips?)

It gets worse. In the link above there are 48 "and"s in a row, all in perfect English sense. :|



No wonder fish & chip sellers use



Full story in the Wiki link above.

:thumleft:
By Spooky
#1521327
Rob L wrote:
Spooky wrote:My ex-girlfriend's surname had an ö. ...


Oh dear, I hope I misinterpreted that. Perhaps her maiden surname still has an ö? Or are you up for life? :mrgreen:


She married and now has an ø :P