Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
By johnm
#1519594
eltonioni wrote:We'll see but that gloomy synopsis is really just another work of fantasy worked around a smattering of half truths which rely on the assumption that the negotiators on both sides are no brighter than a billy goat in a sheep fold.


On the performance to date I don't think any of them are even close to the standard of a billy goat in a sheep fold :roll:
eltonioni liked this
User avatar
By leiafee
#1519601
eltonioni wrote:We'll see but that gloomy synopsis is really just another work of fantasy worked around a smattering of half truths which rely on the assumption that the negotiators on both sides are no brighter than a billy goat in a sheep fold.


I am reminded of the joke along the lines of

"You can't just call them names like that - take it back"

"Okay, sorry, I do take it back - they are as bright as a billygoat in a sheep fold"
johnm, eltonioni liked this
User avatar
By matthew_w100
#1519617
eltonioni wrote:We'll see but that gloomy synopsis is really just another work of fantasy worked around a smattering of half truths which rely on the assumption that the negotiators on both sides are no brighter than a billy goat in a sheep fold.


You know what - I really do expect that in ten years and with a lot of effort by people who are actually quite bright we will have come up with something workable. However I have absolutely no faith that it will be *better* than we have now - not least because not even the most ardent Brexiteer will paint a picture for me of what "better" would look like. I only ever get "not bad, like it is now" which is a peculiarly negative response .

But just think how good it would have been if we'd put ten years and a lot of effort by people who are actually quite bright into making the EU work better.
Flyin'Dutch', JoeC, johnm liked this
User avatar
By GolfHotel
#1519632
johnm wrote:
eltonioni wrote:We'll see but that gloomy synopsis is really just another work of fantasy worked around a smattering of half truths which rely on the assumption that the negotiators on both sides are no brighter than a billy goat in a sheep fold.


On the performance to date I don't think any of them are even close to the standard of a billy goat in a sheep fold :roll:


Sorry John got to disagree here.

The Billy goat was clearly looking for something and found himself up shift Creek and locked in with no hope of escape. So he was clearly a bit daft.

Now look at the sparkling performance of the Brexiteers. Boris and Nigle both were smart enough to take evasive action quickly to avoid any possible of having to take responsibility for the shift we are in caused by the lies spread about and swallowed as gems by the uneducated numptys.

Now those of you who are picking up the cudgels please bear in mind I don't think the reminder of the politicians are much better.
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1519791
matthew_w100 wrote:
eltonioni wrote:We'll see but that gloomy synopsis is really just another work of fantasy worked around a smattering of half truths which rely on the assumption that the negotiators on both sides are no brighter than a billy goat in a sheep fold.


You know what - I really do expect that in ten years and with a lot of effort by people who are actually quite bright we will have come up with something workable. However I have absolutely no faith that it will be *better* than we have now - not least because not even the most ardent Brexiteer will paint a picture for me of what "better" would look like. I only ever get "not bad, like it is now" which is a peculiarly negative response .

But just think how good it would have been if we'd put ten years and a lot of effort by people who are actually quite bright into making the EU work better.

Totally agree, especially with the last part. The problem is that the EU is en-route to somewhere that's not better, it's much, much worse. This is self evident to anyone who cares to look beyond the headlines and doesn't need any supporting statements, expert or otherwise.

We don't need a picture of better, we just need to imagine what's worse; increased German hegemony, increasingly poorer southern nations, Turkey, the EU Army, more democratic deficit, French political incompetence, and ever more citizen discontent at their reduced standard of living and opportunity.

The renegotiation a year ago clearly showed that the EU wasn't interested in reform in any meaningful way, and it's activities since confirm it. So what to do? Wait and watch as it falls apart, or make a decision to protect the UK's interests which might have the happy benefit of jolting the EU into action? But no, even now the EU institution is solely focussed on protecting the institution instead of citizens. If the EU stripped back to serve citizens and business instead of itself I'd be all for it but as it is we're better off spending the next ten years on the outside and focussed on the UK while the EU expensively, facistically, and maybe violently falls apart at the expense of citizens.

It's a classic case of fiddling while Rome burns and it does surprise me that so many apparently unaffiliated people seem to have either been bamboozled by so much superficial pro EU reasoning, or don't care enough to make changes. The EU needs its feet holding to the fire, not the UK, and yep that might be painful for those doing the holding too.
By johnm
#1519792
There's no doubt that the EU is a problem but it's a pity that we chose to walk away rather than try hard to work with the Germans, French and Scandinavians to make it work better.

Taking back control is all very well but that implies we can control the impact of external events (e.g. Trump and the sale of European GM to Peugeot Citroen) and that we have a govt capable of running the country effectively to a sensible long term strategy. Sadly neither of these is true.

I would love to be proved wrong about HMG over the next two years, but sadly I doubt it :(
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1519799
Agreed again. It would have been nice to work from within to change it but it just wasn't going to happen John. The EU is broken and beyond repair in it's current format, ie with the UK inside.

I personally don't buy taking back control, I prefer the more politically insensitive leave them to it.
johnm liked this
By Highland Park
#1519810
Very few people make me want to put a foot through my TV, but seeing President Blair patronising us and telling us how it can all be made better by rising up against Brexit made me come pretty close.... :x

Any guesses on the headlines in the Daily Wail and Express tomorrow? As my Latin master said before my O-Level: "I await the result with interest..." I didn't surprise him...
User avatar
By Boing_737
#1519812
My view on the whole thing is we need to see it through now. We've taken a big dump in our own back yard, and Junkers et al will do their utmost to make like hard if by some miracle we stayed in.

That, however, means that The Government needs to act professionaly on the world stage, and both Tories and Labour need to stop being a bunch in self agrandising, head burying morons.
johnm liked this
User avatar
By matthew_w100
#1519858
eltonioni wrote:We don't need a picture of better, we just need to imagine what's worse; increased German hegemony, increasingly poorer southern nations, Turkey, the EU Army, more democratic deficit, French political incompetence, and ever more citizen discontent at their reduced standard of living and opportunity.


And there it is again - I find it so depressing! We *do* need a vision of better - it is impossible to *lead* without a vision of the future. If you take the "imagine what's worse" approach you just end up with a population mired in the spiteful hope that those we have left spiral into a miserable collapse. How can that be a future to look forward to?

As Clive Woodward so beautifully articulated when he was taking England to win the Rugby World Cup, if you want a team of winners you have to have them live and breathe the image of winning. You have to paint them the picture of them standing on the podium, holding the trophy, crowds cheering.

We need to motivate the masses with an image of success. Otherwise we (a peculiarity of the British) will just bicker and blame and expect the other bloke to take responsibility. And then we'll end up back in the seventies.
Last edited by matthew_w100 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
By johnm
#1519862
Morten wrote:Relax - it's all in safe hands now as Blair (who he :twisted:?) comes to the rescue.


It is rarely wise to shoot the messenger without hearing the message, however odious the messenger may be...... :roll:

As Clive Woodward so beautifully articulated when he was taking England to win the Rugby World Cup, if you want a team of winners you have to have them live and breathe the image of winning. You have to paint them the picture of them standing on the podium, holding the trophy, crouds cheering.

We need to motivate the masses with an image of success. Otherwise we (a peculiarity of the British) will just bicker and blame and expect the other bloke to take responsibility. And then we'll end up back in the seventies.


I think there's much to be said for this. However, Clive Woodward also knew how to play and win a game of rugby and how to build a game plan after a proper analysis of his team's strengths and weaknesses and the risks they faced. Currently the primary advocates of Brexit in government are not giving me a "Woodward" feeling, rather one that they are indulging in wishful thinking and simply covering their ears and singing la la la whenever anyone draws a potential problem to their attention.
User avatar
By matthew_w100
#1519865
Exactly my point. There is no leadership, and leadership starts with vision.

In fairness though, it is not uncommon for leaders do downplay the difficulties and push the problems under the carpet. Especially the weak ones.

Weak leaders move *from* things, strong ones go *to* them.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9