[eltonioni]

There is in my mind no doubt that the increase in hate crime in the UK is the direct result of the climate created following the Brexit referendum, whereby it is deemed OK to suggest, as done by Amber Rudd, that companies should publish the numbers of non-Brits they employ and mainstream newspapers can brand judges as 'enemies of the people'

To fail to see that seems a bit 'snowflakey' to me

Then allow me to introduce some doubt into your mind, which as a scientist I'm sure that you will appreciate FD.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files ... dlines.pdf

The idea that 'Hate Crime' can be so readily transposed with 'Thought Crime' in so many instances is chilling to me, but since snowflakes melt when heat is applied lets keep the sun shining. Here goes...!

Amber Rudd was instantly put back in her box by colleagues and the foreigner % policy suggestion chucked out, so it wasn't really deemed "OK" as soon as she'd said it. Apparently the idea was more popular amongst the populace though, so we can see why she floated the idea. It was analysed and quickly melted away.

Nobody is above criticism, especially the judiciary. Personally speaking, I'm pleased to live in a country where I can just about freely decide for myself if I agree with a freely given opinion about the judiciary. I thought that "enemies of the people" was a bit strong in the given context but the headline sounded as silly as it was, and the fuss quickly melted away.

This all brings me back to Trump. Unless difficult things can be said, and they can be openly looked at they don't melt away, and we end up with Trump as POTUS. Western society seems to have frozen itself in a place where some things are deemed too unconscionable to discuss respectfully without the discussion being closed down. Those discussions still take place, but now they are hidden, opinions harden, they fester, then people use their only way of being heard and use their silent vote to install Trump as POTUS.

[johnm]

We do desperately need outfits like Civitas and a clear rational analysis. The manipulation by the right and the left is equally reprehensible, but it's instructive to note that the right do it deliberately and strategically, whereas the left tend merely to exaggerate or misinterpret stuff. Both are trying to feed their own prejudices to persuade the wider populace to accept a point of view. In fairness the point of view embraced by the left is a bit more civilised than that embraced by the right in this context.

This all brings me back to Trump. Unless difficult things can be said, and they can be openly looked at they don't melt away, and we end up with Trump as POTUS. Western society seems to have frozen itself in a place where some things are deemed too unconscionable to discuss respectfully without the discussion being closed down. Those discussions still take place, but now they are hidden, opinions harden, they fester, then people use their only way of being heard and use their silent vote to install Trump as POTUS.

Political correctness has essentially screwed up the balance in discussion and demonstrates all too well that positive discrimination is as destructive as negative in many ways.

[OCB]

Read this and worry, a lot

Trump et.al. want to remove trust in the media; some media want to remove trust in politicians. It's dangerous both ways.

/Peter

The Cambridge Analytica setup is scary. Those who haven't read the article, should.

It's not "new" per se, I clearly remember chastising some of the "anti-ID card" lot - as they claimed it would lead to "big brother". I kept pointing out that many international companies held swathes more data, weren't bound by British laws - and as Big Brother goes, a lot scarier than the mandarins in Whitehall.

There are ways to counter-act this though. The easiest is just to use your already highly evolved and effective BS filters. The psychology of marketing is a rather mature discipline, and there has been a Darwinian fight between those selling and those buying since the price of bread was chiselled into walls a couple of thousand years ago. You can also "like" about 300 random stuff on FB just to throw off the AI

Politicians, mogul owned MSM (who wield a lot less political power than 20 yrs ago), traditional indie news etc continue to struggle with social media and the "easy to fact check" connected world. I reckon that's why Trump is blatantly and constantly lying.

It's also why Putin has troll factories clogging up Western news comments sections.
They realise they've lost control of "big media". I think Trump is going for the FUD factor, nothing more sophisticated than getting a section of (US) society to "give up" on the news.

I never used to say this in polite company, as it really does smack of "paranoid conspiracy
theories" - but serious info wars have been evolving and playing out in our mainstream online media + other online venues for at least 10 years, more likely 15. 77 Brigade is a bit late in on the act, but AFAIK there already was a unit operating some time in the early 2000s.

Before, it was relatively easy. Roll out some "Kuwaiti nurse", claim she saw Iraqi soldiers throw premature babies out of incubators - and that Saddam had a massive army on the border of Saudi (still waiting for those satellite photos).

[eltonioni]

We do desperately need outfits like Civitas and a clear rational analysis. The manipulation by the right and the left is equally reprehensible, but it's instructive to note that the right do it deliberately and strategically, whereas the left tend merely to exaggerate or misinterpret stuff. Both are trying to feed their own prejudices to persuade the wider populace to accept a point of view. In fairness the point of view embraced by the left is a bit more civilised than that embraced by the right in this context.

This all brings me back to Trump. Unless difficult things can be said, and they can be openly looked at they don't melt away, and we end up with Trump as POTUS. Western society seems to have frozen itself in a place where some things are deemed too unconscionable to discuss respectfully without the discussion being closed down. Those discussions still take place, but now they are hidden, opinions harden, they fester, then people use their only way of being heard and use their silent vote to install Trump as POTUS.

Political correctness has essentially screwed up the balance in discussion and demonstrates all too well that positive discrimination is as destructive as negative in many ways.

I can't agree that the left is even a bit more civilised than the right, but otherwise totally concur. The left are certainly more prone to histrionics but their overriding problem is a desire to shut down opposing POV's. In that sense, go far enough left and you join the extreme right in how far they will go, but the left are triggered much more easily than the right, sensitive souls that they are.

Orwell was mentioned a few posts back, and he'd recognise today's equaly patriarchal and divisive socialists in an instant. The fascists, not so much because they have essentially disappeared, and what few remain are powerless and generally keep themselves quiet. Orwell was a great giver of sunlight and he'd recognised identity politics back in the 30's. The vast majority of people fit into neither category and just want to be left alone by both socialists and fascists but we do understand the power of the ballot box (and the rifle) on the big ticket items if the time comes. Trumps fizzle out and rarely follow through.

[JoeC]

Ah, the good old days before political correctness - people making monkey noises at black people in the street, throwing bananas at football matches, chortling along to white comedians in blacked-up faces on the TV or referring to whole swathes of the population - women, Irish, black, asian etc - as untermenschen.

This was in the 1970s and 80’s when I was growing up – not in some far-flung past.

The people who enjoyed this power to diminish others are not long dead but still active and recruiting yet thankfully silent in the streets, restaurants and pubs (and occasional football terrace) that I go to. Thanks to political correctness I guess.

[johnm]

Ah, the good old days before political correctness - people making monkey noises at black people in the street, throwing bananas at football matches, chortling along to white comedians in blacked-up faces on the TV or referring to whole swathes of the population - women, Irish, black, asian etc - as untermenschen.

This was in the 1970s and 80’s when I was growing up – not in some far-flung past.

The people who enjoyed this power to diminish others are not long dead but still active and recruiting yet thankfully silent in the streets, restaurants and pubs (and occasional football terrace) that I go to. Thanks to political correctness I guess.

I grew up in the 1950s when a few boarding house windows displayed edifying signs like "No Irish, No Coloureds, No Dogs" A campaign against discrimination successfully made such things increasingly socially unacceptable. However Political Correctness stifled discussion and opened the door to euphemistic language, highly undesirable positive discrimination and quotas. Anti-discrimination is wholly good, PC not so.

[Paultheparaglider]

The manipulation by the right and the left is equally reprehensible, but it's instructive to note that the right do it deliberately and strategically, whereas the left tend merely to exaggerate or misinterpret stuff.

It is hard not to agree with the first bit of this, John, but I think you are kidding yourself if you think the left don't act just as deliberately and strategically as the right. That they both do this and get away with it is because we seem to be increasingly drawn to pick sides and want to win every time, whereas we should recognise that the best decisions are nearly always give and take compromises. Pretty much every political decision has pros and cons. There are winners and there are losers. Failure to give a little causes ever increasing movement away from the sensible middle ground. Until we can all accept this, we will become an ever more divided society with all the negative consequences that extreme dissonance will inevitably produce.

[johnm]

I admit that I tend to give the left a bit of credit for being civilised and a " bit beard and sandals ", though I realise there is a hard left. The right are better funded and more focussed generally and therefore more scary.

It's quite ironic really as I'm instinctively a little right of centre rather than left.

[nallen]

It's quite ironic really as I'm instinctively a little right of centre rather than left.

You might find that the centre has shifted a bit …

[OCB]

I grew up in the 1950s when a few boarding house windows displayed edifying signs like "No Irish, No Coloureds, No Dogs" .

Guardian ran an article about that not long ago, the most famous photo is probably a fake. Not a value statement, I just found it interesting.

.Anti-discrimination is wholly good, PC not so.

I'd tend to disagree when anti-discrimination becomes positive discrimination.

Being a white male "white collar" worker in the mid 90s, it was glaringly obvious I and others like me were discriminated against in an attempt to "rebalance" the workplace. To put it in a vulgar term, "the only way to get a promotion was to lose your ****".

Of course, it was incredibly un-PC to say that - which led to resentment and ill will amongst both men and women. It would have been much better for companies to clearly state their policy, and have open and honest debates about the pros and cons.

and no, I'm not a misogynist - I'm way too much of a meritocrat for that. I admit I probably took a bit too much pleasure watching my wife effortlessly humiliate (at a technical level) misogynists when we worked in IT together...

[eltonioni]

Ah, the good old days before political correctness - people making monkey noises at black people in the street, throwing bananas at football matches, chortling along to white comedians in blacked-up faces on the TV or referring to whole swathes of the population - women, Irish, black, asian etc - as untermenschen.

This was in the 1970s and 80’s when I was growing up – not in some far-flung past.

The people who enjoyed this power to diminish others are not long dead but still active and recruiting yet thankfully silent in the streets, restaurants and pubs (and occasional football terrace) that I go to. Thanks to political correctness I guess.

Not sure that you'll find anyone here to disagree with you about right and wrong there Joe. PC is over though, it's identity politics that we need to pay attention to. While ever time's wasted on the past in an effort to shore up current power, nobody is really paying attention to things that might matter in future.

Thanks to IT, the new media has been able to expand on Orwell's various treatise where the socialists (especially those with any power) wear luxurious Merino hair shirts while trying to clothe everyone else in dog hair. Alex Jones might be an insane manipulator but he's right about one thing; more people are waking up.

It's not a secret any more that traditional socialism is corrupt and bankrupt of useful ideas in the 21st century. The right have basically stolen the best social policies for themselves and pushed the left into territory that is essentially unpalatable to the average citizen. At the same time the grounded left has had to move to the right and leave behind the irrelevant dinosaurs like Corbyn.

In the West, all the best stuff like racism, sexism, health, social mobility, suffrage, education, are understood, mainstream, and incorporated into society. While it's not perfect, there's no political capital for the left in any big ticket areas so it has retreated into nihilistic identity politics turf wars about patriarchy, colonialism and even nationalisation and ignored the day to day issues that affect people's life. As a result, well meaning people rock up at demonstrations in London about the POTUS without even noticing the Venezuelan, Cuban, Russian, Libyan, Chinese, Pakistan, etc, embassies. It's just pathetic identity politics and every time that somebody tells (for example) a blue collar white man (trigger warning) that he needs to pay for something that he's not responsible for a little bit of extra resentment builds up and then they end up with Trump as POTUS.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Traditionally the left were good at emphasising the need to educate and diversify; however for a number of reasons those important items were left off and in behaviour which could be taken straight from 'Animal Farm' vested left political institutions and associated paraphernalia became the golden calf.

That has led to vast swathes of blue collar working areas across the world being left behind and no sharing in the wealth created over the last 25 years, leaving it to the likes of Trump et al., to move the traditional blue collar work to areas where cheap labour could be easily exploited without any checks and balances.

That has caused the left now having considerable problems in being a meaningful force in a number of political arenas across the globe.

[Paultheparaglider]

You might find that the centre has shifted a bit …

This may be correct or not, but I think it is very hard to either prove or quantify. What I think is more clear is that people are becoming ever more polarised away from that centre. Eltonioni has a fair point about identity politics, and I for one see that as a largely negative trend that only truly open minded thinking can reverse.

[johnm]

Guardian ran an article about that not long ago, the most famous photo is probably a fake. Not a value statement, I just found it interesting

Seen them with my own eyes in Blackpool where we holidayed at my great aunt's boarding house in Palatine Road.

[OCB]

Guardian ran an article about that not long ago, the most famous photo is probably a fake. Not a value statement, I just found it interesting

Seen them with my own eyes in Blackpool where we holidayed at my great aunt's boarding house in Palatine Road.

And it was in Blackpool in the mid 80s I more than once had problems renting a room as my west of Scotland brogue sounds "a bit Irish". As I said, it wasn't a value statement.

To be fair to Blackpool, we once got refused a room under the "no same sex" rule. We found another place saying we'd been turned away from our first booking.

They immediately assumed we were gay, and made a big fuss out of making us feel welcome. We actually just meant "do you also not allow same sex bookings?". Oh well, we just went with it.

My mate - all 6ft 3 and dunno how many stone + mullet - made a big act out of mincing from the car to the door with the bags, holding my hand and giving me a big kiss, calling me darling etc.

I did my best to keep up with his act (as in not collapsing in laughter).

The joke of course was it was 2 single beds in the room.