[Paul_Sengupta]

As far as the Senate / Congress goes, I wonder if they are standing back so that he burns himself up. Labour tried that with Corbyn to great opposite effect

I don't agree about Corbyn. There have been factions of the Labour party actively fighting him. He did similar to Trump, removing a lot of his critics and replacing them with his supporters, but there was still opposition from the more centre-leaning bits of the party. However, *now*, as in the past couple of months and going into the future, now they're giving up the fight and are just going to stand back and watch him burn himself out. Only then can they re-group in unity and Corbyn can stand aside and say "well, I tried." Not sure when this will be, probably after the next general election.

[Dave Phillips]

Trump is using "Leadership for Dummies - The Precis" here. Tell the population there is something to fear, stir the pot-of-hate and then tell them that you're The Man to sort it.

I sort of painfully agree with Jetblue - give him 24 months, let him build the wall and harass immigrants/religious minorities, alienate USA from the rest of the developed world etc.

One strength (weakness?) of most Americans is that they will not be told how to go about their lives, especially from non-Americans. The only way Trump will be ousted is when America learns it's own painful lesson. The media will facilitate that.

[kanga]

There is in my mind no doubt that the increase in hate crime in the UK is the direct result of the climate created following the Brexit referendum, ..
To fail to see that seems a bit 'snowflakey' to me

.. and is analogous to the atmosphere in the US certainly amplified and to a great extent created by Trump supporting media there. That atmosphere led to a citizen, who presumably thought he was reasonably fulfilling a patriotic duty in helping the President-elect safeguard that nation from dangerous foreigners, opening fire unprovoked on two strangers in a public place because he thought they were 'Middle Eastern'; whereas, in fact, they were Indian, but it is the implicit mindset which is disturbing. Trump's formal campaigns and rhetoric since election, and the vilely mendacious content of the media which supported and still support him, contributed to such a mindset, whose traditions are, to those who thought they knew USA well, deeply 'unAmerican'.

[johnm]

I'll await developments with interest. However it remains a fact that Trump is an objectionable human being surrounded by others who are objectionable and even sinister. That is not good for the world.

One does not defeat evil by using its methods, however it may be necessary to be very determined and well armed to take it on effectively. The problem is that there is no consensus on what evil actually is.

[Jetblu]

There is in my mind no doubt that the increase in hate crime in the UK is the direct result of the climate created following the Brexit referendum, whereby it is deemed OK to suggest, as done by Amber Rudd, that companies should publish the numbers of non-Brits they employ and mainstream newspapers can brand judges as 'enemies of the people'

To fail to see that seems a bit 'snowflakey' to me

Well, that definitely is a choker.

Give us another laugh, what's your reasoning for this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39096833

[johnm]

Sadly a significant number of people are fundamentally primitive and tribal, that's why football is so popular. Right wing nationalists play on this and bring out the irrational antipathy to other tribes, unpleasant, uncivilised and irrational though it be, it is depressing real

[Boing_737]

Hopefully Trump will implode, his level of ignorance on what goes on outside his own borders is amazing, or not so amazing when you consider the person who's operating the mouth is Steve Bannon, and he is associated with people like Alex Jones

[Jetblu]

Sadly a significant number of people are fundamentally primitive and tribal, that's why football is so popular. Right wing nationalists play on this and bring out the irrational antipathy to other tribes, unpleasant, uncivilised and irrational though it be, it is depressing real

Well, my take on it is significantly different to yours. I've seen and heard all the warnings from the 'primitive and tribal' lot. They were ignored and told that everything would be ok.
Many years later it proved to be that it wasn't ok. Nothing at all to do with nationalists, football or being uncivilised.

I agree. The prospect of dealing with it after the horse has bolted is not very pleasant and quite depressing, but it is not going to miraculously sort itself, is it.

[johnm]

There are very few places in Europe and the USA where things are not OK. many of the cannon fodder of the nationalist right could have done what I did and move to retrain and find work. In the U.K. if you are able bodied and don't have a job it's your fault no-one else's, certainly not that of the hard working Rumanian or Muslim shop keeper.

[Jetblu]

The BBC article presented to FD earlier is not about hard working Romanian or Muslim shop-keepers, is it.

[johnm]

The BBC article presented to FD earlier is not about hard working Romanian or Muslim shop-keepers, is it.

No it's far worse, it's about the ignorant and stupid attacking the vulnerable and harmless.

[johnm]

Read this and worry, a lot

[akg1486]

Read this and worry, a lot

One wonders what George Orwell would say about that. True: he was concerned about totalitarian politicians, but totalitarian billionaires aren't better.

I've been worrying for years about what you can do with Big Data. That article didn't exactly calm me down. On the other hand: how can we know that Trump's fear-mongering is fake and the Guardian's is not? Trust in institutions (public and private) is key to low corruption, which in turn is key to a healthy economy. Trump et.al. want to remove trust in the media; some media want to remove trust in politicians. It's dangerous both ways.

/Peter

[johnm]

The thing that worried me and I'm not a socialist, was the potential power of the capitalist right who have both the technology and the resources. The left may have the technology to compete, but when the Guardian is begging for £5 subscriptions one has to question whether it has the resources....

[Paultheparaglider]

The only way Trump will be ousted is when America learns it's own painful lesson.

That there are lessons to be learned here is indisputable. However, those lessons are not straightforward.

That Trump IS the President is a lesson in itself. As is Brexit. And, probably, there are going to be more examples until lessons are actually learned.

That some of Trump's rhetoric is odious, that some of his policy decisions are short sighted, and that there are strong disadvantages to Brexit are all clear. But, these unwelcome consequences have been allowed to fester by an intellectually arrogant elite that has chosen to impose its will on an increasingly disenfranchised section of society with scant disregard for those other interests. It has used political correctness to silence debate, and it has, certainly in the case of Brexit, used political manipulation to achieve a structure that is forcing great social change against the will of many.

One of the main lessons to be learned is that you cannot force change, however well intentioned, against the will of the people. Change has to be wanted and welcomed with open arms, and you achieve that by debate and informing people, and then most importantly by listening to the response. Steamrollering might get your immediate wishes, but your changes are built on foundations of sand.

Brexit is a classic example. Many people want open trade. Many people want a lot of the other benefits and protections that have come from the EU. However, many people don't want the high degree of social engineering that has been imposed on them. Brexit, sadly, is probably just the start. Le Pen may not be elected, but her influence should not be ignored. Neither should the rise of the far right in Germany, in Holland, and many other countries. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

No, sadly the reality is that it isn't Trump that is the problem. It isn't Brexit. They are indicative of the problem. No doubt both will bring negative consequences, but they are indicative of a complete and total failure of a large part of the population of these countries to have a long hard look in the mirror and recognise that it is merely reaping what it has sowed. That is the real lesson that needs to be learned, and, sadly, there is little real evidence that the people sowing the seed even realise yet what they are doing. Let alone appreciating they also need to change.