[malcolmfrost]

Something Mrs. May needs to learn is that America NEVER does anything that isn't overwhelmingly in their interest. Just try and get a computer hacker extradited to the UK.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have always acknowledged that the EU is imperfect, indeed very imperfect! However I also believe strongly that collaboration and co-operation is the way of the future if we want a peaceful,and prosperous world.

Nation states are already obsolete in some areas,

Yet you support the EU, which is very overtly trying to create a centralised very large national state built upon only semi-democratic central rule.

I also believe in collaboration and co-operation, it's why I voted to leave the shooting match! Because I don't believe in centralised governance that the population has little control over.

G

[matthew_w100]

GDP growth is a very poor measure of economic health since it can be fuelled by all sorts of undesirable economic stuff.

A big GDP growth accompanied by massive balance of payments deficit and massive government debt doesn't describe a healthy economy.

Absolutely fair point. But instead of doing the same as everyone else and just pointing out the flaws, propose something better! There MUST be a measure which can determine whether exiters or remainers were economically correct.

And PW's political dimension point is fair too. Its just that both Brussels and London are so far away from the influence of the ordinary person that I don't think it matters which is marginally closer. And actually I think it's debatable which it is.

I'm a Kentish Man in Europe.

[johnm]

If you need to understand better look to Germany, who value all aspects of industry and services and look to long term investment rather than relying on a bunch of financial shysters

[johnm]

I have always acknowledged that the EU is imperfect, indeed very imperfect! However I also believe strongly that collaboration and co-operation is the way of the future if we want a peaceful,and prosperous world.

Nation states are already obsolete in some areas,

Yet you support the EU, which is very overtly trying to create a centralised very large national state built upon only semi-democratic central rule.

I also believe in collaboration and co-operation, it's why I voted to leave the shooting match! Because I don't believe in centralised governance that the population has little control over.

G

The EU is a French bureaucracy at this point. It may always be so and the French seem to get on OK. 27 out of 28 countries also manage to work with it. So " Everybody is out of step except our Jimmy"

[johnm]

Sorry you've got me at it now

[Genghis the Engineer]

The EU is a French bureaucracy at this point. It may always be so and the French seem to get on OK. 27 out of 28 countries also manage to work with it. So " Everybody is out of step except our Jimmy"

You might want to look at the satisfaction levels with the EU around Europe. This is last June I believe. No, I don't know why there are two Germanies either - I've linked to the article it's from below.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/678 ... -continent

It does seem to imply that there would have been a much stronger vote for Frexit than Brexit, had that country been given a choice.

G

[SteveN]

One thing is for sure. If that Guy Verhofstadt character is heading up the EU negotiations they are not going to be protracted.

[nallen]

No, I don't know why there are two Germanies either

And yet you quote it...!

You could have at least tried ascertaining the source of the graph: the "Spring Global Attitudes Suvey [sic]: Q10c" -- then you would have found the second "Germany" is in fact Greece: original source here: http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/.

And then you might decide never again to quote the Express as a reliable source of anything.

It does seem to imply that there would have been a much stronger vote for Frexit than Brexit, had that country been given a choice.

You are equating from that graph, without any justification from the data, "unfavorable" views of the EU with a vote for leaving; not the same thing at all. (In August, a poll published by Le Figaro said 33% would opt for Frexit.)

(Incidentally the original Pew data includes the, frankly astonishing, statistic that "13% of those who identify with UKIP hold a favorable opinion of the EU"; make of that what you will.)

[Paultheparaglider]

No, I don't know why there are two Germanies either

And yet you quote it...!

To be fair, there is a mighty big clue in the first line of the article. The bottom Germany is Greece, which might have been a typo, or it might have been an astute observation that Germany now runs Greece anyway.

[johnm]

Genghis quoting the Express

As I've pointed out numerous times. I'm one of many not very satisfied with the EU, but that's very different from choosing to leave it. To leave it implies we don't think the long term vision is right or ever doable and that there's evidence that being outside would be better.

[matthew_w100]

If you need to understand better look to Germany, who value all aspects of industry and services and look to long term investment rather than relying on a bunch of financial shysters

Agreed. How do you measure that?

[johnm]

If you need to understand better look to Germany, who value all aspects of industry and services and look to long term investment rather than relying on a bunch of financial shysters

Agreed. How do you measure that?

It's the big question isn't it? Because the answer is part cultural and part economic so parameters are things like:

Corporate ownership national vs international and the relevant ratios
Long term investment plans in manufacturing and infrastructure
Respect for skills both professional and trade, e.g. Eng is used like Mr and Dr in some parts of Europe who don't call a plumber a "heating engineer", but still respect his skills.
Focus on generating both balance of payments and government surpluses through wisely targeted investment (making stuff people want to buy at keen prices) and efficient and effective public services supported by fair and targeted taxation. Services have their place in all this of course, because factories are staffed by robots and people need work.

You get the general idea I hope, but it's undeniably very complicated.

However my big worry about what I hear from La May about Free Trade is that we have no basis for it and she doesn't even know what it means. Most of our major industries are controlled by foreign companies and/or governments as is most of our infrastructure.

[matthew_w100]

Sure - but we shouldn't let our leaders off with vague qualitative statements like those. They have little more value than a horoscope; almost any situation in ten years time can be warped to be described as a success. We really do need some SMART objectives! (other goal setting methodologies are available).

[Genghis the Engineer]

And yet I quote it!

For three reasons.

(1) It was reasonably easy to find.

(2) The express doesn't show quite the level of aggressive political bias of, say, the Guardian or the Telegraph on this topic.

(3) The numbers for the UK come out remarkably close to the outcome of the referendum.


But thanks those who pointed out that the second German was Greece, and the original source.


Anyhow, may I venture an opinion on the narrative. Fun 'though it is for those of us with relatively strong political views to snipe at each other about whether or why we're leaving the EU. The big and important question now, is how and when.

G