For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
#1487440
Have I got the right thread this time? Yes? Good, let's get on then.

According to Dutch-led investigators Malaysian flight MH17 was shot down by Russian sympathisers using a Russian 'Buk' missile that was tracked driving in to Ukraine from Russia and then back again after the shoot-down. Amazingly the transporter was tracked (and blogged) using, among other things, social media.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/world/asia/malaysia-air-flight-mh17-russia-ukraine-missile.html?_r=0

Since the attack the Russians have released a number of explanations, denials and theories including that the Ukranians shot down the 777 from FL330 using a ground attack aircraft, some poorly photoshopped pictures of a missile and a Malaysian aircraft (of the wrong type) and a story that the CIA had filled a remotely controlled aircraft with bodies and detonated it in flight.

Putin will of course accept full responsibility and compensate those affected. :roll:
#1487445
Sadly Russian reality does not rely on facts and evidence as we are commonly used to so it seems.

Maybe Trump has realised this and therefore likes Vladimir so much - he likes his style.

With Kim Jong-Un in North Korea, Vlad in Moskou, Erdogan in Ankara and Trump in Washington I think we have a full house.

Whoever wished us to live in 'interesting' times?

No it wasn't Confucius!
#1487511
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:With Kim Jong-Un in North Korea, Vlad in Moskou, Erdogan in Ankara and Trump in Washington I think we have a full house.

Sarkozy might do a comeback in France, and we already have Viktor Orban in Hungary. Not to mention al-Assad in Syria. Interesting times indeed...
#1487644
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Sadly Russian reality does not rely on facts and evidence as we are commonly used to so it seems...


.. in a long tradition of systematic mendacity as a tool of domestic control, war, and diplomacy in Russian history (Tsarist, Soviet, and post-Soviet), with a few glimmers of exception (including occasional Kruschev, Gorbachev and, until he was slapped down by 'PM' Putin, Medvedev).

But today's uncontrollable (outside Russian borders, at least) media may have helped both leaders and population around the world, observing the Putin machine's early and continuing lies and obfuscation about MH17, realise how much Russian pronouncements about Syria are to be trusted.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1487766
kanga wrote:.. in a long tradition of systematic mendacity as a tool of domestic control, war, and diplomacy in Russian history (Tsarist, Soviet, and post-Soviet), with a few glimmers of exception (including occasional Kruschev, Gorbachev and, until he was slapped down by 'PM' Putin, Medvedev).


Whereas western governments never have of course :roll:
#1487767
SteveN wrote:
kanga wrote:.. in a long tradition of systematic mendacity as a tool of domestic control, war, and diplomacy in Russian history (Tsarist, Soviet, and post-Soviet), with a few glimmers of exception (including occasional Kruschev, Gorbachev and, until he was slapped down by 'PM' Putin, Medvedev).


Whereas western governments never have of course :roll:



In fairness their mendacity is not systematic and they don't control anything much.
#1487773
In the west mendacity has been re-labeled SPIN, and somehow acceptable.

For a few years now and suspiciously coincidental to Trident renewal there has been a media campaign of painting Russia as 'bad people' and again THE threat. Perhaps when our new subs/nukes funding is committed it will die down again.

Meanwhile China is given a pass while cyber attacking our systems for years. Of course they carry a lot of Western debt so best no bad press please and leave them alone. :evil:

The other elephant in the room has been Saudi of course (protected by oil) though there is some critical media scrutiny since oil has started to flow from Iran again.

If anyone thinks all this is produced by independent media sources they live in a dream world.

Our mainstream media is every bit as controlled and manipulated as Russia.

If you rely on BBC/ITV you really don't have a clue.

Russia today, BBC.. same thing.
#1487789
SteveN wrote:.. suspiciously coincidental to Trident renewal there has been a media campaign of painting Russia as 'bad people' and again THE threat. ..
Meanwhile China is given a pass while cyber attacking our systems for years. ..

The other elephant in the room has been Saudi of course..

Our mainstream media is every bit as controlled and manipulated as Russia.

If you rely on BBC/ITV you really don't have a clue.

Russia today, BBC.. same thing.


:?:

'controlled/manipulated' by whom ? evidence ?

I am not aware of any pejorative exaggeration in UK nor other Western media reporting of Russian Government actions in Russia, Ukraine, Syria (.. Georgia, Moldova, Baltics, ..); nor of any (let alone suspicious) undereporting therein of Chinese cyber attacks nor of nature and actions of Saudi regime.
Flintstone, skydriller liked this
#1487791
The point is that we all know of the issues around Saudi and China (where I'm off to examine things first hand next week) and we recognise SPIN when we see it.

Russia is a different kettle of fish and for generations the powers that be have taken advantage of the Russian propensity to support "Mother Russia" whatever the personal cost. Russians WANT to believe any mendacious nonsense their leaders spout and have no critical faculties in that respect whatsoever.