For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
#1487849
Paultheparaglider wrote:I'm so glad I was born in Britain. :wink:

Cecil reckons so you should be:
Cecil Rhodes wrote:Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.


(Well, Wales is nearly England <runs away from Paul & Leia & Dewi>)
#1488108
Paultheparaglider wrote:
johnm wrote:Russians WANT to believe any mendacious nonsense their leaders spout and have no critical faculties in that respect whatsoever.


What? There isn't one single smart one in all 143 million of them?

..


rather, I think, the very large number of very or even moderately intelligent and generally well-informed Russians know and assume that their Government will systematically and regularly lie to them, and also know now that that Government controls nearly all media in their country, and challenging the official line is as unhealthy as it has ever been in Russia's long history of such governments ..

Similarly, after the last Duma elections, there were widespread protests against the blatant bias of the media and the equally blatant ballot-rigging. During the most recent ones, both were equally blatant and even more serious, but there were far fewer public protests, presumably reflecting both fear and resignation among the citizenry.
#1488865
kanga wrote:
Paultheparaglider wrote:
johnm wrote:Russians WANT to believe any mendacious nonsense their leaders spout and have no critical faculties in that respect whatsoever.


What? There isn't one single smart one in all 143 million of them?

..


rather, I think, the very large number of very or even moderately intelligent and generally well-informed Russians know and assume that their Government will systematically and regularly lie to them .


Nothing like our lot then
#1488888
johnm wrote:Russians WANT to believe any mendacious nonsense their leaders spout and have no critical faculties in that respect whatsoever.

kanga wrote:rather, I think, the very large number of very or even moderately intelligent and generally well-informed Russians know and assume that their Government will systematically and regularly lie to them, and also know now that that Government controls nearly all media in their country, and challenging the official line is as unhealthy as it has ever been in Russia's long history of such governments ...


I just happen to be sat opposite 2 Russians, both educated to engineering degree level, nice guys, one of whom i consider 'a good mate'....and you know what, they arent stupid, but they really dont care either way...

regards, SD..
#1488976
TrailStar wrote:
kanga wrote:..

rather, I think, the very large number of very or even moderately intelligent and generally well-informed Russians know and assume that their Government will systematically and regularly lie to them .


Nothing like our lot then


no, nothing like 'our lot', if you mean 'UK Government' (in all its many parts and echelons).

We have so many disparate parts of Government (often mutually mischievous :roll: ), and media (professional and 'social') outlets (none of them controlled by Government), that the 'best' that any Government agency with an intent to deceive the public could hope to rely on is temporary obfuscation. In my experience as a non-partisan politics geek, even when such temporary obfuscation is arguably justified (eg, in context of imminent military operations, or major Governmental unheralded financial announcements) it is very difficult to achieve. There are too many potential sources of 'indiscipline'. In the military context, I personally have been imperilled by such (an 'insider' unaware of the full implications getting too gossippy with a journalist).

To look in the 'West' for an aspiration for and occasional success at the sort of systematic mendacity which is now (again) routine in Russia one needs to look not at Governments but at some large corporations or organised fraudsters. Some of both which affect ordinary citizens here may be found to be based in .. Russia.

Unless, of course, other Forumites know and can show otherwise .. As ever, happy to be better informed.
#1489461
TrailStar wrote:Look at you original post, it did'nt say the deception was successful, in fact the opposite, so again, Nothing like our lot then?


Again, no.

Many well-educated, well-informed, metropolitan Russians know, and many others suspect, that their government systematically deceives both its own citizens and the rest of the world. Many of that group further know or suspect which parts of which stories peddled by their government-controlled or -influenced media are mendacious in this way. Further again, many of that subgroup may guess, or through access to freer foreign media may know, what the relevant truths are. But there is probably a very much larger number of Russians who know or suspect none of these things, and are persuaded by those government media that their government knows best and acts for the best reasons in their national interests; and that it is not only unhealthy but in some sense unpatriotic to suggest otherwise.

I do not see nor can recall any analogous policy or practice systematically to deceive UK citizens by any central* UK Government, except in wartime; and even 'justifiable' attempts to obfuscate particular truths for a limited period are doomed by our various checks and balances (free media, FOIA, NAO, and perhaps most significantly general ethos of public service) to fairly rapid failure.

[*caveat since I believe that there are increasing dangers of concealed malfeasance in lower echelons of Government, or some "arm's length" activities including eg Higher Education and Health Trusts, or outsourced activities eg private prisons, arising from abolition of Audit Commission .. :roll: ]

But, as ever, happy to be informed otherwise.
#1489523
I do not see nor can recall any analogous policy or practice systematically to deceive UK citizens by any central* UK Government, except in wartime


I suppose that last caveat covers Mr Blair's actions.
I'm not a fan of Simon and Garfunk, but their is one very true line in that song, the Boxer

The world is full of deceitfull Governments and quite a few citizens who believe their side plays by the same rules they expect of others, I'm not one of them, so we will have to just disagree.