Blimey... I haven't been on this thread for what must be at least 75 pages.. or more.. And the same old carp is being spurt out from both sides.. I particularly like this one:
eltonioni wrote:Were you the only one who didn't get the note from Her Majesty's Government in 2016 telling you that the UK would go to hell in a handcart if the country voted to Leave?
I think that people are cleverer than you think they are and they understand that some things might have negative consequences as well as opportunities. Most people live their life like that and make decisions accordingly.
We haven't left yet!
Why, if people are cleverer than I think, so knew that they were voting for a no-deal Brexit, were leading Brexiteers making the following promises during the referendum?
“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.” - Daniel Hannan
"Only a madman would actually leave the Market" - Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer
"Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing" - Nigel Farage, Ukip leader
"The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive for some business people" - Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive
"Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK" - Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder
Your ability to rewrite history does you no favours!
Er... I am struggling to see exactly what promises were made.. These are all statements of opinion - not what will happen... save the first one who is a MEP and therefore doesn't even have a say in domestic parliament.. And this this the rub - the campaign was just that - the campaign... It wasn't anyone running for office and if they got in they would do x, y or z.
There appears to have been misleading statements from both sides (still waiting for the actual figure that *could* be put to the NHS per week if it were decided to use all the "savings"; and the economic armageddon on the economy predicted after a simple out vote didn't materialise - the economic issues are at present being attributed to uncertainty more than anything else)..
What I would like from both sides is.. well.. fact or at least well researched quantitative analysis. For example, both the leave and remain camps agreed on one thing - in the short to medium term (whatever length of time that actually means) we will be economically worse off. But really, is there an estimate by how much?
I mean food shortages... The UK is one of the biggest food manufacturers.. Surely any slack in loss of exports could be foisted on an unsuspecting local market? If I can't have my buffalo mozzerella (sp?), then I wil have to do with West Country goats sheese of some sort. I will live - unlike those starving across the world. Will not being in the EU affect the supply of avacodos from Israel (yes.. no doubt it will affect the supply from Spain). And what about my bananas from the Carribean, my Oranges from wherever they come from, my rough red from Aussie land and my soft sauvignon blanc from kiwi land.. I just relaised, my amber fluid of choice is Peroni.. better start resetting the tastebuds..
What is the actual amount of food we consume that comes from the EU? How much more will my Welsh lamb cost? My British Bacon (yes, I know a lot of dutch pork gets sold in the UK - butI buy British. And since the guvmint doesn't get customs duty from EU stuff now, do they need to slap on duties - or could they hold off or have a seriously low rate as the income isn't flowing onto their coffers at the moment? And we are getting some such sum of money in savings, to boot! So the cost will be the extra time to get the stocks from the continent to here. Over millions of packes of bacon, I am not sure how much that will add.
How much per pack of bacon, per car, etc extra will it cost me... and for how long?
I read something a few pages back about a secret plot to even up the balance of trade between Britain and the US.. We seen to export a lot to the US and not import much in return. That is OK.. but so what if we start importing more from the US.. It doesn't mean we will be exporting less (in fact under a FTA, we may even export more).. But if we import more, will we go into [more] debt to do cover the imports, or will we divert our spending from EU (and possibly other countries)? There is only so much demand and so much cash/credit in the economy. We may end up driving in inferior technology and more gas guzling cars (Tesla excepted); unwittingly eathing bleached chicken in our Mc Donalds chicken burger and of course, eating a lot more GM... again unittingly. That, to me, is bad and I would like to think our guvmint would at least ensure (and enforce) labelling laws so that we could make an educated choice - but my guess is I am going to have to grow my own chickens and keep eye on them lest the chlorine man tries to adulterate them as I slaughter them. And I am not drinking Budweiser or Coors - period (Killions Red, bottled, is a different proposition altogether).
Of course, the Brexiteers say, "No worries, mate.. If it doesn't all work out, we can just rejoin. Job done!". Well, it aint that simple; we may have become an economic basket case - and therefore don't meet the criteria. We may lose all those lovely derogations we managed to obtain (some Dutch leader remarked something allong the lines of "When they were in, they wanted out; now they are out, they want in"; I know we are not out.. but it was a little funny. That net £360m we pay a week (or whatever it really is) may well grow to be a significant amount more; after all if you drop out of this club and decide to rejoin because your distended stomach needs nutrition, then they are not going to be terribly understanding... I wouldn't think... If course, it is all conjecture - and not based in fact,
I also read someone saying they asked people what harm did the EU do to them (or some such question). Well, it may not have... but that doesn't mean things couldn't be better (and it doesn't mean things won't be an awful lot worse - but for no return as no one was hurt and there may well be nothing to fix). However, most of us are pilots.. and have we already forgotton the Gordeau (sp?) years and the additional costs and regulatory uncertainty he thrust on us. We still ldon't really know if we are legal or not with respect to all the different licencing requirements - and we are still in the EU!I have to say though, if the EU would protect GA airfields as part of the supranational infrastructure, I would be more minded to stay!
I hear the Brexiteers complain that the EU is not democratic. That is poppypenis. Do we not have the house of Lords, an unelected chamber? Do we not have an unwritten constituion (aka no constituion - just a body of administrative law and convention), where the courts cannot delcare legislation invalid? Farage carries on about how undemocratic the EU is because they don't allow private members bills into the parliament. Whoopee. I can't recall the precise law, but such bills, unless on national importance on a moral issue the guvmint doesn't want to be tarred with, from memory, have a spearate convening of parliament to discuss with no affect whatsoever, or are placed so far down the parliamentary business, they rarely even get read, let alone debated and voted on.
Also, the very country that the current guvmont holds dear - aka higher education fees and immigration quota systems - Australia - has always been considered a democracy. Yet, private members bills are effectively not allowed there, either. If a private member wishes to table a bill, it has to be submitted to the minister (Australian for secretary of state of the department) and they decide if they take it forward; they can amend it, etc, and they are the person who reads it to parliament. Fair Dinkum!
(Actually, you may have guessed by now, I am consuming some of that fine Aussie rough red as I type).
I could go on.. As I said, I really don't care whether we stay or go; I don't care if its a deal or no deal; Whichever way it is, companies will still want to make money and grow - and they will learn to deal with it and the consumer, as always, will pay.. Likely, the worker, too.. Consumers will still consume, so there will be an economy. And some companies will fall.. but I think that would happen anyway... But I have absolutely no data to back it up (and I make no promises).
Enjoy your debate.. I was going to say bring on 31/10, but all I want is the conclusion... So I can bleedin well implement whatever changes I need to..
We will be in pain, but that is what the majority of who turned out voted for. If we stay,
I'll come back in abother 100 pages or so.. In the meantime, enjoy Brexit.