Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By eltonioni
#1655858
spaughty wrote:"Remain" voters chose the status quo, they knew exactly what it was, and they were all voting for the same thing.


I know very, very few who voted remain and knew what they were voting for and continue to be surprised* by this on an almost daily basis.

Even now, I'm not sure I know a non party political person who can name their own MEP without Google, never mind recall who they voted for, and there's no chance they can name 5 MEP's of any party or nation. A typical answer is "Nigel Farage... umm that Guy wosisname, Michael Barnier, and the one who's always drunk... that's only four though"

I suspect this test largely will hold true here, but the test rarely causes any introspection at what they voted for.

* can one continue to be surprised after a couple of years of it?
By spaughty
#1655863
My point is that "Remain" meant the continuation of life as normal - which is very easy to understood.

I suspect most people could name neither their Westminster MP nor their European MEP(s). Does that make the Westminster Parliament invalid as well?
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1655865
spaughty wrote:My point is that "Remain" meant the continuation of life as normal - which is very easy to understood.

I suspect most people could name neither their Westminster MP nor their European MEP(s). Does that make the Westminster Parliament invalid as well?

There is enough information out there to realise that the EU of the future is not the same as the EU of the past.
User avatar
By kanga
#1655877
eltonioni wrote:.., I'm not sure I know a non party political person who can name their own MEP without Google, never mind recall who they voted for, and there's no chance they can name 5 MEP's of any party or nation...

I suspect this test largely will hold true here, but the test rarely causes any introspection at what they voted for.

..


<languid non-partisan wave> :)
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1655890
I am not sure that name recognition is a measure of effectiveness in the political game.

No idea who suggested the abolition of roaming charges for mobiles, the clean air, clean water regulations etc but am hugely thankful for their efforts and the EU for implementing those regulations.

I do know the names and activities of the likes of Nigel Farage, Bojo, John Redwood, JRM, Michael Gove etc...........

To the question what have they ever (positively) done for us I don't have a ready answer.
By cockney steve
#1655894
The more I see, the more I'm convinced that Orwell had a crystal-ball when he wrote Animal Farm.

Perhaps that's why it was predominantly "the oldies" who voted Exit. We'd seen the aftermath of 2 World Wars, saw the rebuilding, The present generation have little inkling of the endeavours made to stand the country on it's feet again and do not appreciate the ramifications of the creeping Federalisation and subsuming of individual countries. We all listened to pop songs in the 60's about a "great big melting-pot" and , though the social results have been good in some quarters, in others we have "no go" areas, drug-wars, subjugation of women, Caste-conflicts....... What chance a united Europe , with our different customs, cultures and traditions? I think the West voted pretty comprehensively on that one in 1939-1945.

(and the Dutch still ,apparently bear a grudge, though, of course, there are virtually no Germans (or Japanese) alive still, who had anything to do with it all) It's been a very costly experiment, the sheer waste, starting with the annual trek between two very expensive HQ's one of which sits idle for most of the year..
Maybe the British exit will lead to the other principal members questioning just why a large number of poor economies were allowed in. The fundamental, founding reason was an Economic alliance . It got lost. This is now little more tan collective bribery to keep the poor economies' politicians "on -side" and it's a very heavy price to pay. I'd love to go back to an EEC, Spain , Greece and Italy among others welcomed British holiday- makers with open arms . Their spending transformed the economies (as well as the landscape with hideous hotel-blocks) they weren't members then!
Let the wheels fall off or weld themselves more securely. It seems Merkel's mob learned little from the collapse of Communism and the cost of re-absorbing the East German population. Then she opens the door to any villain claiming to be a refugee, which ,theoretically, gives them a free roaming ticket to wander across any where in the EC, that they choose. Why did the other 26 countries accept that?... too late, she realised that there are fundamental cultural chasms between the indigenous population and many of the "refugees".We had little say in that, but we are still struggling with various criminal groups of different ethnicities who have the legal right to come to London for the summer pickpocketing season, for example, before vanishing back "home". :pale:
@Flyin'Dutch' I think you'll find that we had among the highest water standards in the West and the clean air acts when the smogs of my childhood became intolerable....both pre-dated any sort of post-war economic "club".
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1655904
@cockney steve

Erm-no the London smog was legendary and swimming in coastal waters in the 70s was positively discouraged on account of the terrible water quality.
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By johnm
#1655910
I have memories of all the decades since the 1950s, and I'm increasingly impatient with the insularity and rose tinted nostalgia of many folk my age and even younger and if someone mentions the war once more I shall scream loud enough in the Cotswolds to be heard in London.

It is wise to look at history with a critical eye and learn from it. Otherwise enough of this looking back and enough of these fantasies about the special relationship with the USA and free trade with states where you need to count your fingers after shaking hands.

Nobody who is agin the EU seems to have any criticism of the UK. In case you hadn't noticed we have lots of wonderful talents, but quite a long list of areas where we're a complete and utter bloody shambles. This has been true for a very long time and is a normal part of the human condition. We've also sold all our infrastructure and industry so that we're now dependent on the French, Germans and Spanish to keep the lights on and the busses running.

So while there are many things wrong with EU, as well as with the UK, overall being part of it (on balance) has been pretty beneficial, politically, economically and socially and there's zero evidence that this is likely to change.
kanga, Cowshed, Smaragd liked this
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1655933
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@cockney steve

Erm-no the London smog was legendary and swimming in coastal waters in the 70s was positively discouraged on account of the terrible water quality.


EU propaganda is very strong. The UK's clean air and river pollution acts date from the 1950's, whereas IIUI most of Europe didn't make a start until the 70's, when I suppose it might have become an EEC matter.
Flying_john liked this
By johnm
#1655939
Sooty25 wrote:WAR!

aaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhh :D
By johnm
#1655947
eltonioni wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@cockney steve

Erm-no the London smog was legendary and swimming in coastal waters in the 70s was positively discouraged on account of the terrible water quality.


EU propaganda is very strong. The UK's clean air and river pollution acts date from the 1950's, whereas IIUI most of Europe didn't make a start until the 70's, when I suppose it might have become an EEC matter.




The clean air act 1956 was a response to the London Smog of 1952 and merely created a few “smokeless zones” if I remember rightly, it thus started the move towards central heating and coke gas and electricity for warmth. In the meantime raw (or at least lightly treated) sewage and industrial waste was heading through rivers to the sea across much of the country.

I don’t recall that anywhere really started to tackle it seriously until the 70’s and it rapidly became a Europe wide issue and built up momentum through the 80s and 90s with EU becoming a focus for standards.
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1655949
eltonioni wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@cockney steve

Erm-no the London smog was legendary and swimming in coastal waters in the 70s was positively discouraged on account of the terrible water quality.


EU propaganda is very strong. The UK's clean air and river pollution acts date from the 1950's, whereas IIUI most of Europe didn't make a start until the 70's, when I suppose it might have become an EEC matter.


The UK clean air act was introduced following the great smog of 1954 when 4000 people were killed by that smog.

http://www.air-quality.org.uk/02.php

Since the joining of the EEC there has been a plethora of EU initiated additional legislation indeed, hardly suggesting that the UK was leading the way, and the UK is among the 6 countries in the UK that have managed to work their way all the way to the ECJ on account of not protecting their citizens against the hazards of air pollution due to lack of action on improving air quality.

I hazard a guess the reluctance of the UK to address this problem will not reduce when the UK is out of the EU.
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