Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
By johnm
#1564454
I rather think something went a bit awry in eltonioni’s post above. :roll:
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By eltonioni
#1564467
A wonderful example of groupthink there chaps, if rather inelegantly expressed. Feel free to present an proper argument instead of argumentum ad hominem.

I'm popping out for run so you'll have some time to double check the EU party line on their new army for w/c 9 October. It might be best to wait for the Catalan Parliament's independence (or not) announcement as it's running about an hour late.
By johnm
#1564477
Once you’ve come back from your energy wasting you might like to take a look at the post where quoting of me duplicated your post in error. :D
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1564490
eltonioni wrote:
johnm wrote:But I bet that most people can name the one they voted for and another two, and they know exactly how to get rid of them, and the consequences of who gets the most MPs.

The EU has subverted the notion of the will of the people that's even kept kings in check since Magna Carta. Amazingly, some people think that this organisation should have a nuclear equipped army to supplement its paramilitary police force, as if the world needs another army.

But I bet that most people can name the MP that they voted for along with two more, and know how MP's win elections and gain power to create and implement law, and that they know exactly how to get rid of them if they turn out to be rotten.

The principles of Galton's Ox and the wisdom of crowds has generally served people well for a thousand years.

The EU has subverted the notion of the will of the people that's even kept kings in check since Magna Carta. Amazingly, some people think that this organisation should have a nuclear equipped army to supplement its paramilitary police force, as if the world needs another army.

I'm going to dig out my copy of Homage to Catalonia for a read.
By Leodisflyer
#1564503
A translation of the Magna Carta is available here: http://www.magnacartaplus.org/magnacarta/

By the time you reach the 10th and 11th clauses you might struggle to see its relevance to a modern democracy. It doesn't improve much after that.

There are also quite a few clauses that enshrine the class system of the time.

That said, clause 41 looks to be an early form of a free movement agreement and the start of the abolition of trade barriers. Possibly the basis for Maggie's Single Market?
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By kanga
#1564719
eltonioni wrote:..

Spontaneously name 3 UK MEPs,..

...


(genuine spontaneity..)

William, Earl of Dartmouth (UKIP)
Julie Graham (Con)
Molly Cato (Green)

..but I am, by UK standards, a (non-partisan) political geek. However, in many other EU nations, especially newer members, far more of the only slightly politically aware populace would likely do much better. It is the UK media which has been exceptionally unwilling to cover elections to and activities at the European Parliament.

None of which, of course, is an argument for nor against the underlying issues in the thread.
By Bill Haddow
#1564732
kanga wrote:It is the UK media which has been exceptionally unwilling to cover elections to and activities at the European Parliament.


As the recently late, and much lamented, Teddy Taylor observed, if the European Parliament were abolished the only people who would notice would be the restaurateurs and taxi drivers of Brussels and Strasbourg.

Bill H
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By johnm
#1564751
Bill Haddow wrote:
kanga wrote:It is the UK media which has been exceptionally unwilling to cover elections to and activities at the European Parliament.


As the recently late, and much lamented, Teddy Taylor observed, if the European Parliament were abolished the only people who would notice would be the restaurateurs and taxi drivers of Brussels and Strasbourg.

Bill H


A man out of his time, which would have been the 1880s. :roll:
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By kanga
#1564830
Bill Haddow wrote:
kanga wrote:It is the UK media which has been exceptionally unwilling to cover elections to and activities at the European Parliament.


As the recently late, and much lamented, Teddy Taylor observed, if the European Parliament were abolished the only people who would notice would be the restaurateurs and taxi drivers of Brussels and Strasbourg.

Bill H


He may have said it, and his Southend constituents familiar only with UK media may have believed it, but it may not have been true. In many EU nations, time as MEP is an important public credential to those aspiring to national political high office, just as time as the Mayor or equivalent of an important city is (and used to be in the UK).

As ever, I do not presume to judge whether such a 'cursus honorum' leads to better democratic governance at national level or not. I merely suggest that the ignorance and wilful media neglect and national politicians' scorn of the European Parliament is a particularly UK thing, for good or ill.
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By Bill McCarthy
#1564836
Didn't the reverse happen with that useless Welsh windbag - Neil Kinnock, leader of the opposition for years, ended up as a EU commissioner.
By johnm
#1564844
Bill McCarthy wrote:Didn't the reverse happen with that useless Welsh windbag - Neil Kinnock, leader of the opposition for years, ended up as a EU commissioner.


Indeed he did and that just about sums up the stupidity of the UK establishment and its catastrophically ambivalent attitude to the EU.
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By kanga
#1564847
Bill McCarthy wrote:.. Neil Kinnock, leader of the opposition for years, ended up as a EU commissioner.


(Without approving nor decrying the abuse, which is not my style nor inclination .. :roll: ) ..

Indeed, some in politics have gone on to Commission (different from Parliament, of course: Parliament, as in UK, is there to scrutinize) from national or subnational politics, including several UK Commissioners from both main Parties. At least one has then returned to UK national politics, with some success (and in another Party ), Jenkins. This has been commoner in other EU countries.

Sometimes, of course, people have combined the elected roles. Ian Paisley was at one stage an elected member of Belfast City Council, the prorogued Stormont Parliament, the Westminster Parliament, and the European Parliament; and paid and with expense allowance for each role!


An important legacy of the Prodi Commission, with important help from the two UK Commissioners, Patten and Kinnock, was to increase the power of the Parliament to scrutinize (by summoning witnesses, documents and Commissioners) and to check and sometimes frustrate the Commission, although those exposed only to UK media might not realize that this happens. Some Commissioners have not enjoyed nor approved of this! It is also one reason why any Brexiteers deal negotiated by Commission will have to be approved not only by Governments of the 27 but also, independently and separately, by a vote of all MEPs in the Parliament, including presumably UK ones until UK leaves. In this context Barnier, answerable to Council of Ministers, cannot dictate to Verhofstadt, chosen by MEPs. It's called representative democracy ..

Apologies to Forumites to whom this is tediously familiar :oops:
By Bill Haddow
#1564870
johnm wrote:
A man out of his time, which would have been the 1880s. :roll:


But of course, when you do not like his uncomfortable home truths, just resort to argumentum ad hominem

He was a first rate constituency MP, a man who stood by his principles.

Bill H
By johnm
#1564877
But of course, when you do not like his uncomfortable home truths, just resort to argumentum ad hominem


I have no issue with truth. I’m a fan in fact.

He was by all accounts and general consensus a very dedicated constituency MP but he was also Europhobic, shared the views of Powell and had other views more of the 1880s than the early 21st century, which is my point.