Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

User avatar
By Timothy
#1255990
Paul_Sengupta wrote:The two VRPs to the north of Cardiff are two ruddy great television/radio masts, Wenvoe and St Hilary.

This has always struck me as a daft idea. I suppose it ensures that you know that they are there, but nonetheless....
User avatar
By Hazel C
#1256016
Thanks all, hmm, i'm still confused. I think i'll go with the MSA rounded up to the next 100ft to take into consideration the obstacles 5nm either side of track, then add the 1000ft safety altitude. I have looked on the CAA website, but can find no definitive answer there either. I'm hoping this won't come up now..... :?
User avatar
By QSD
#1256020
Balliol wrote:QSD - thanks just read the legend and you are quite right that the MEFs take into account unknown obstacles, I.e. The 300ft. Good refresh for me!

Oops, I should have said MEF, not MEL. Same thing.

Iolanthe, not sure what you mean by MSA, but MEFs are already rounded up. The 1.4 MEF on the CAA chart near Tonbridge is based on the highest point in the grid which is the Wrotham Hill mast just to the North, altitude 1305 ft.

AFAIK, there is no legal requirement calculate a safety altitude for a VFR flight - it is just a tool to help you plan your flights sensibly.
User avatar
By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256031
Timothy wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:The two VRPs to the north of Cardiff are two ruddy great television/radio masts, Wenvoe and St Hilary.

This has always struck me as a daft idea. I suppose it ensures that you know that they are there, but nonetheless....


It's attention getting since they're both above 2000' tall and Cardiff invariably clear you in "not above 1500'"

Nebo focusses the mind similarly when going into Caernarfon on a day when you want to be beneath Valley's comings and goings!

I can't do it without humming a bit of Dafydd Iwan...

"Eheda yn isel fy'anwylyd, ond gwylia fast Nebo hen chwaer
Basai'n resyn i weld di yn dipia, yn llanast o fan 'ma i Gaer"

Roughly translated as "Fly low my darling, but watch out for Nebo mast, old girl- it'd be a shame to see you end up in a clatter of bits from here to Chester...."

:wink:
User avatar
By AndyR
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256033
I thought they were 1000' and 1300'?

Not local but do a fair bit of low level work around there.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256048
Remember that a VRP is a Visual Reference Point, not a Visual Reporting Point.

You are required to report relative to the point, not at it.

And if it is a bloody great mast, using it as a VRP does mean that people are at least looking for the thing!

G
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256059
And when you can only see the bottom third of the mast with the rest in cloud as you fly past, you might decide you want to return to the airport and not do some stalling practice in the Tomahawk...
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By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256240
Genghis the Engineer wrote:Remember that a VRP is a Visual Reference Point, not a Visual Reporting Point.

You are required to report relative to the point, not at it.

And if it is a bloody great mast, using it as a VRP does mean that people are at least looking for the thing!


True and worth the reminder, though Cardiff's standard VFR routes are fairly specific. (With some leeway in "north of" I suppose.)
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By Sir Morley Steven
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256368
It isn't always possible to apply the IFR minimum altitude to VFR flying. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fly.
As has been said, on a half mil chart the minimum MSA you can see is 1800ft which leaves 700ft to fly in around London.
Applying the IFR MSA is an acceptable concept but also think about your real VFR minima (500ft rule, 100ft rule etc etc) and the fact that you are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (and masts) and apply, say, a 500ft buffer.
You can then give yourself an absolute minimum altitude below which you have already planned your diversion/turnback.
This is often necessary when flying east/west between London and Gatwick CTRs when the cloud isn't as high as you want.
Scud running is a very very bad idea and has killed many experienced pilots so you must make a conscious decision not to fly below your minimum altitude before you take off.
VFR rules are perfectly safe provided the pilot is too.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1256403
I would suggest that for the calculation for the exam, it's the 1000ft thing, and the 10 mile corridor thing.

VFR flying isn't just about flying on sunny clear days. You can fly VFR with the visibility down to 3km (1.5km with EASA?) where you may not be able to see and avoid masts and the like. The dead reckoning method of navigation isn't really there for when you can see for miles and see where you're going, but for when the visibility is low. It's a lot easier on the nerves if you know that you're at such a height where you're not going to suddenly see a mast or power lines in front of you.
User avatar
By Hazel C
#1256419
Thanks Paul, I think thats what i'll go with if it comes up.

I'll report back later....that is, unless I am curled up under a bush with the cats somewhere because its all gone horribly wrong :(
#1592257
Thread revival, does anyone know please whether helicopters use the same MSA calculation as aeroplanes? i.e. are the instrument flight rules the same?

Yes I now I should go look in the EASA regulations but just in case anyone can save me the trouble please :-)
#1592336
Back at work, a lot of searching to try to answer my own question. The requirement to operate to a "minimum flight altitude" is in various parts of the EASA operations rules. Those rules appear to draw no distinction between aeroplanes and helicopters but delegate the actual calculation to the local "competent authority" and the operator or PiC.

There is EASA AMC and GM which says "Commercially available information specifying minimum obstacle clearance altitudes may be used." It also gives an assortment of possible methods for commercial air transport to calculate its MFA. Eventually I found some GM for CAT helicopters which sets the same 1000 feet and 5 miles as for aeroplanes. So that is the answer, well a possible answer as it is GM not regulation.

Took a lot of effort to find and I had an idea where to look. As ever, I am glad that I do this for work and am not trying to fit it in as a spare time activity. Rules this difficult to find and understand are worse than useless.