Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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#2005809
Duncan M wrote:
PFL, the real world!

Alternatively,
1. Quick assessment of problem, can it be fixed straight away, by changing fuel tank, switching on fuel pump, carb heat application, mag check.
2. Best glide speed, turn into wind.
3. Look for a safe landing place reasonably close to your position.
4. Set up for a safe let down to that position.
5. Further assessment to see if problem can be fixed.....decision!
6. Commit to land in your chosen field. Passenger brief if necessary.
7. If time, make a radio call (ATC, D&D........whoever could offer best help)
8. Fly the aircraft until it finally stops.

By their very nature, forced landings are an unknown quantity and the exact actions may vary depending on the type of problem the aircraft has.
But the priority is to give pilot, crew, and passengers the very best chance of walking away from the forced landing.

Caveat, I am not an instructor so take their advice in preference to mine.


As you say, every situation will be different, but there are a few important things that you ought to do.

1. The first and most important is to trim like a bastard for best glide. Once you think you've done that release the stick and make sure you've done it properly because you won't have. You'll probably want to stop a wind-milling prop if it hasn't stopped already.

Now things vary depending upon your height.

2. If you're about 500' AGL or lower, then turn into wind and choose the scene of the accident, or find yourself lucky and land in a field. Your choices will be limited.

3. If you're way up in the sky then after trimming like a bastard, turn down-wind (unless there is a really good option nearby up-wind, like an airfield or something). Flying down-wind allows you to cover more ground and thus gives you more fields to choose from.

4. Choose a suitable field (5S etc.), which might be on either side of the aircraft, and position yourself to land about 1/3 of the way in. This is where you need to practice to get the right sight-line. Keep it in view at all times, if you don't you'll probably not find it again.

5. Now the aeroplane is trimmed (and so not needing so much of your attention), you've chosen a suitable field and are well positioned to land in it, you can see if you can get the engine going again (mags, fuel, mixture, refit the blown cylinder, etc.). If not then turn the fuel and mags off.

6. You should ideally be aiming to arrive abeam your chosen touch-down point at 1000' - 1100' AGL, so mimicking your (familiar) view around the end of a normal downwind leg. This puts you in as familiar a position as possible, given the circumstances. This point in space is sometimes referred to as 'Low key'.

7. Get all of your pre-landing checks out of the way as you head for 'Low key'. Make a mayday call if you have the time.

8. If you're not going to make your chosen field, or it starts to look unsuitable (tall crop, cables, whatever) select a more suitable field.

8. Make your base-leg/final turn as best you can so as to land 1/3 into the field. Adjust the turns as necessary. NEVER STRETCH THE GLIDE.

9. Around now you can try to finesse the touchdown point a little earlier into the field if you feel the need/have the headspace, but the critical thing is to touchdown normally and either roll to a stop or roll into the far hedge. If the aeroplane is fitted with flaps, and you are making your touchdown point, then use them.

The point to remember is that you should be able to walk away from most engine failures/forced landings as long as you maintain control of the aeroplane all the way to the ground.
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By Rob P V2.0
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2005811
Duncan M wrote:2. Best glide speed, turn into wind.

I was taught to look around for a handy field, if none available turn downwind so as to cover more ground, to give you more options.

Rob P V2.0
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By lobstaboy
#2005814
Good advice from @Kemble Pitts there.
A couple of points -
I think he means never TRY to stretch the glide, because you can’t, and
Changing your selected field because you can’t get to it is essential in the real world, but in your skills test the examiner will ask you to say which field you are going for and if you’ve got it wrong and can’t make it, you’ve failed. Make sure of your field.

Also be aware that some instructors are going to favour a constant aspect technique without the low key point (me for example) precisely because using a low key point makes everything familiar and can fool you into thinking this is a normal power on circuit (hence TC’s banging on about practice glide approaches)
Either way, do what your instructor likes and feels good to you. If struggling it can help to get them to show you other ways.
FWIW the RAF teach constant aspect.
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By lobstaboy
#2005815
Rob P V2.0 wrote:
Duncan M wrote:2. Best glide speed, turn into wind.

I was taught to look around for a handy field, if none available turn downwind so as to cover more ground, to give you more options.

Rob P V2.0


It’s a good theory, but it’s going to have to be pretty windy for that to make any practical difference to us at GA altitudes.
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By Rob P V2.0
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2005822
Why not take the small benefit anyway?

First move on any engine fail once you leave training aircraft behind is to trade speed for height, another small benefit.

Personally I find it easier to picture the 'circuit' from what is effectively a downwind leg.

But hey, if turning into wind does it for you I'm not going to quibble.

Rob P V2.0
#2005832
I certainly wouldn’t turn into wind, to be fair.

Strictly speaking you need to pitch for best glide speed straight away. This might result in a climb in a high performance aeroplane, but the purpose is to conserve energy, not to gain height per se.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2005945
lobstaboy wrote:But how do you ‘learn to feel the descent angle’ from 2000’ some way from the field? I don’t think you can - although you can learn it for the last 1000’ or so, assuming you’re still high enough for it to work.

Well obviously it's less accurate the higher you are and the further away you are, so it takes longer to form an impression of what's going on, in terms of whether you're close enough to get to where you want to be.

But I still think a sensitivity to descent path comes if you do a lot of glides and pay close attention.

I'm biased, of course, in that I've done the vast majority of my flying in the same aeroplane. Inevitably with a very high degree of familiarity, comes a sense of nuance that I doubt I'd have in other aircraft without a lot of practice, which realistically I'm never going to get.

However, none of that changes my view that @T6Harvard should fly a lot more glide approaches. They're not an exercise to be covered, they're a vital aspect of being able to fly an aeroplane rather than operate it.
Kemble Pitts liked this
#2005950
I agree with TopCat, glide approach competence is essential for a successful forced landing.

As has been said, there are a couple of common techniques taught for PFL/forced landings, get comfortable with one of them (whichever works for you) and stay in practice. They all start and end in the glide.

My preference is to get to Low Key (about 1000'-1100' AGL abeam the touchdown point) as this gives you a familiar viewpoint as it is pretty much the end of a normal down-wind leg, which you'll know from every circuit you fly. Your workload is going to be high, so trying to make use of the familiar, as far as possible, should help.

Clearly, you then need to be competent at glide approaches to be able to get from Low Key to the ground safely - so get, and stay, competent at judging glide approaches all the way to the ground.

If you regularly fly glide approaches from the downwind in your normal flying you will be equipping yourself well to deal with a forced landing.

It is also great fun and very satisfying to be able to properly judge a glide approach and landing; aren't most of us flying for the enjoyment and satisfaction factor?

[PS - don't forget carb heat and engine warming when practising].
lobstaboy, T6Harvard, TopCat liked this
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By lobstaboy
#2005954
TopCat wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:But how do you ‘learn to feel the descent angle’ from 2000’ some way from the field? I don’t think you can - although you can learn it for the last 1000’ or so, assuming you’re still high enough for it to work.

Well obviously it's less accurate the higher you are and the further away you are, so it takes longer to form an impression of what's going on, in terms of whether you're close enough to get to where you want to be.

But I still think a sensitivity to descent path comes if you do a lot of glides and pay close attention.

However, none of that changes my view that @T6Harvard should fly a lot more glide approaches. They're not an exercise to be covered, they're a vital aspect of being able to fly an aeroplane rather than operate it.


I do agree with this, particularly the value of doing lots of glide approaches. Being comfortable with the aeroplane in a power off glide helps. And, as Kemble Pitts said, TRIM properly- which will be more instinctive the more used to it you are.
If nothing else it will improve your chances of doing a good landing in a real forced landing!

But ‘longer to form an impression of what’s going on’ makes judging things from a good altitude quite hard. To the extent that by the time you can see what’s going on it can be too late.
It depends on what sort of terrain you’re over of course, how many goodish fields there are.
I sometimes find students struggle more with PFLs from 3000’ than 1500’, precisely because they can’t see what’s going on well enough to make a decision in time.

So picking a field close to you that you can be absolutely certain of reaching easily with height to manoeuvre is key. You can always get rid of the extra height.

In some parts of the country the East Anglian Method is worth knowing and practicing. It works where there are so many fields that practically everywhere is landable.
Simply fly crosswind losing height until there’s a good field about the right distance away into wind. Then turn towards it and land. Simple.
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By Kemble Pitts
#2005956
... also, in a real forced landing, you don't need to be too precious about the field length, if there are no large ones in range. Most flattish fields in the 'usual' UK countryside will be large enough to get down in and lose much of your speed before running into the far boundary.

If you touchdown into wind at the right speed you should walk away from it.
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By Antjrice
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2006243
Met exam taken and passed today (another 100% - not a trend i expect to maintain :wink: ).

I had to cram heavily back to back for both Nav and Met as my progress in the log book had run up against it. I've managed to get these over the line exactly prior to the point that I'm ready to leave the circuit solo.

Looking forward to a bit more balance now given my very patient family have endured my unyielding posture of being buried in a text book, whenever not working' over the last 3 weeks.

I'm going to change the pace now having done 2 of the heavier subjects - i think Principles of Flight might fit the bill.
TopCat, UncleT, T6Harvard and 2 others liked this
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2006266
Oh, and another thing on PFLs.

It won't be easy to start with while flying, navigating, R/T, checks etc etc are taking 115% of your capacity and leaving you a gibbering wreck at the end of the lesson (and if they're not, you haven't been working hard enough)....

But I strongly recommend updating your choice of FL field every two or three minutes in the cruise. If you always know where you'd go if it went quiet, now, say... then there won't be the frenetic 'OMG where am I going to go' workload, and it's just about setting up a route to a point in space where you're completely confident of gliding to the threshold.

With enough glide approach practice, the only work is in getting from where you are when the engine stops, to where it's trivial to land from, without power.
lobstaboy liked this
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By Antjrice
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2006663
Lovely conditions today with no wind at all.

Today it was crosswind and baseleg joins. All went well in terms of the purpose of the lesson and a unannounced PFL was also thrown in which went very well. Radio calls were good seemingly good too. Also got to practice some side slipping which I seem to be figuring out.

However i made a hash of 10 of the last 15 minutes and its left me feeling deflated.

I was flying right up until the last moment of 'daytime' and i think the lack of light seemed to throw me off with my approaches as everything seemed so dark. I was coming in a tad too fast (which i've actually not done before, i've previously found 65 and stayed there easily from the start) and too high which meant I really floated down the runway on my second landing. I then attempted a glide and completely screwed that up, rushing the whole thing - was far too high and had to go around.

I managed to get my head into gear and slow everything down for a final landing that was back on the reasonable side of the scale.

I just need to slow down sometimes and assess the moment that i'm in rather than trying to think too many steps ahead. If i had gone around on that second landing, everything would've clicked into place. My FI ingeniously read my mind as when taxiing back he said "even if i'm sitting here, you've got to think like you're the PIC. I'm not going to tell you what to do or ask you what you're thinking anymore". He absolutely nailed it as if he wasn't sitting there today, i wouldn't have been indecisive.

I also need to remember that i'm 31 hours in and should embrace every teachable moment rather than beating myself up. Still felt rough about it for a few hours though. I think I was just embarrassed and worried he was disappointed which again, is a ridiculous way to feel in front of an FI that's taught you everything and see you do much worse :roll:

Luckily, back on the horse tomorrow to do it all again solo, so hoping some good sleep lets today's lessons seem into my bones, as well as a reminder that 50 of the 60 minutes actually went well.
ericgreveson, T6Harvard liked this
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