Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910981
Rob P wrote:
>
>
> We didn't resolve the issue last time (other than to agree it was a
> nonsense instruction.) I doubt we'll resolve it this time either.
>
> Rob P

Lets try for a quick resolution: its not that difficult :wink:

Assume (not unreasonably) that you already have established dialogue with ATC,(as he's issuing you with instructions) , so repeat of your callsign and ATC identifier not required.:

Two separate and unrelated instructions are issued: (i.e. each one could stand alone)

Instruction 1 " Squawk 3456" (+ possibly ''mode charlie'')
Instruction 2 " and standby"

Responses are commonly carried out in order of issue of instruction: 1 then 2.

Response to Instruction 1 : " squawk 3456" ( + "mode charlie")..........action : 3456 entered into transponder ( + 'alt' if requested).

Response to instruction 2: -none- ...........action: silence and wait for further comms.

Now seriously chaps. where's the confusion? :lol:
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By Chris_N
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911089
"London Centre, Student G-ABCD, I am uncertain of my position and require assistance" worked for me when I was lost close the Birmingham air space somewhere north of Wellesborne on my second solo navigation exercise. By this time it was getting overcast and dark although still technically day. I was given a sqwark, a heading and height to fly. I could not recognise anything on the ground (other than the Rotunda in the centre of Birmingham). After a few minutes D&D asked me to confirm this was a practice PAN. On "Negative, I am uncertain of my position and require assistance" they changed the sqwark to 7700 and continued to guide me via until I could see the airfield when they put me back to 7000 and told me to call Wellesbourne on 124.025.

D&D did not seem to mind that I had not quite got the phraseology totally correct.
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#1911676
@Chris_N I think your request was just about spot on. It probably isn't urgency and certainly not distress. Could be a simple as "London Centre, Student G-ABCD uncertain of position, request fix". Too embarassed to admit you are lost/uncertain of position, "Training fix, training fix, training fix, Student G-ABCD" but the response might not be quick.
#1911677
PeteSpencer wrote:
Instruction 1 " Squawk 3456" (+ possibly ''mode charlie'')
Instruction 2 " and standby"

Responses are commonly carried out in order of issue of instruction: 1 then 2.

Response to Instruction 1 : " squawk 3456" ( + "mode charlie")..........action : 3456 entered into transponder ( + 'alt' if requested).

Response to instruction 2: -none- ...........action: silence and wait for further comms.

Now seriously chaps. where's the confusion? :lol:


Well, just had an RT lesson and the scenario came up. Correct action is just enter the squawk into the transponder and say nothing. ATC (or whover you are talking to) will ask you to repeat the squawk and pass message when they have cleared the more important stuff and are ready for you. Key is the "shut-up until I tell you to speak" of the "and standby"
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911678
FlyingBoot wrote:
Well, just had an RT lesson and the scenario came up. Correct action is just enter the squawk into the transponder and say nothing. ATC (or whover you are talking to) will ask you to repeat the squawk and pass message when they have cleared the more important stuff and are ready for you. Key is the "shut-up until I tell you to speak" of the "and standby"


I think that's just one particular trainer's opinion - I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong, but personally I always confirm the squawk, and no one has complained. Read back of squawks is mandatory to confirm you heard it correctly. The key thing is just confirm the squawk and shut-up, don't proceed to give life story. Strictly speaking the 'and standby' shouldn't be needed, but so many pilots proceed to block the frequency with their life story without be asked for it, that it's become necessary, particularly if the ATCO is doing something else like vectoring that requires timely instructions.
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#1911710
rikur_ wrote:I think that's just one particular trainer's opinion - I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong, but personally I always confirm the squawk, and no one has complained. Read back of squawks is mandatory to confirm you heard it correctly. The key thing is just confirm the squawk and shut-up, don't proceed to give life story. Strictly speaking the 'and standby' shouldn't be needed, but so many pilots proceed to block the frequency with their life story without be asked for it, that it's become necessary, particularly if the ATCO is doing something else like vectoring that requires timely instructions.


My personal opinion is if the ATCO wanted you to read back the squawk and then have silence it would be as two distinct and separate instructions. eg;

"G-ABCD Squawk 4567"

"Squawk 4567 G-ABCD"

"G-ABCD standby" (Shut-up otherwise that A319 I am controlling might crash and kill some puppies)

In the combined instruction "G-ABCD squawk 4567 and standby" the ATCO is requesting that you set the transponder so that you can be tracked but do not reply with anything until asked to do so.
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#1911712
But if you read back the squawk it is still possible to then set the transponder incorrectly. Plus if you readback an incorrect squawk you will probably not get an instant correction from the ATCO because they are busy with other more important traffic, which is why they asked you to standby. Plus if they really wanted you to readback and you didn't, they would repeat the instruction or request a readback.
Hopefully you pop up on the radar screen with the correct squawk in the position they expect you to be so the instruction has been recieved and acted on correctly. If not, you are still less important than the A319 careering into that puppy farm so will just have to wait.
A response from an ATCO would be great
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By rikur_
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#1911714
FlyingBoot wrote:But if you read back the squawk it is still possible to then set the transponder incorrectly. Plus if you readback an incorrect squawk you will probably not get an instant correction from the ATCO because they are busy with other more important traffic, which is why they asked you to standby. Plus if they really wanted you to readback and you didn't, they would repeat the instruction or request a readback.
Hopefully you pop up on the radar screen with the correct squawk in the position they expect you to be so the instruction has been recieved and acted on correctly. If not, you are still less important than the A319 careering into that puppy farm so will just have to wait.
A response from an ATCO would be great

I used to fly with an ATCO, he did the same as me: read back the squawk and shut-up (but I'm sure elsewhere there will be another that keeps silent!)
As soon as you've read-back, ATC know that you've got the correct squawk, and you're done and (s)he can move on to the next task in hand. If you don't respond, there's the 5 second pregnant pause of 'did he get that, is he about to reply, etc'. If ATC wanted to move immediately on to passing another instruction I'd expect a 'break-break' after the squawk.
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By PeteSpencer
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#1911788
@FlyingBoot
You are forgetting, overlooking, or worse still deliberately ignoring the fact that read back of an issued instruction containing numerical information ( frequency, radar heading, QNH oh yes and squawk) is mandatory:

Several posters above (including me) have quite clearly explained the rationale behind this . :wink:

Extract from CAA CAP 413 Radiotelphony Manual
2.69
The ATS messages listed below are to be read back in full by the pilot/ driver. If a readback is not received the pilot/driver will be asked to do so. Similarly, the pilot/ driver is expected to request that instructions are repeated or clarified if any are not fully understood.

Taxi/Towing Instructions
Level Instructions
Heading Instructions
Speed Instructions
Airways or Route Clearances Approach Clearances Runway-in-Use
Clearance to Enter, Land On, Take-Off On, Backtrack, Cross, or Hold Short of any Active Runway
SSR Operating Instructions
Altimeter Settings, including units when value is below 1000 hectopascals
VDF Information Frequency Changes Type of ATS Service Transition Levels

Attached relevant chapter of CAP 413 (SSR Operating instructions)
Last edited by PeteSpencer on Tue May 17, 2022 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#1911798
If the my RT practical is failed because I followed @PeteSpencer's advice rather than my tutor's, what then? Think I might just trust my tutor.

I am not saying the readback is not mandatory, I am saying that you have been asked not to say it yet. What if the call was "G-ABCD, standby and squawk 4567"?

I also think the logic (and things aren't always logical) of "G-ABCD squawk 4567" "Squawk 4567 G-ABCD", "G-ABCD standby"is completely unambiguous so why is that not used if readback is required instantly?
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By PeteSpencer
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#1911799
@FlyingBoot
Follow your instructor’s advice .If he’s wrong this can be discussed in the post test debrief.
I’ve had my R/T sign off for 29 years and am not giving advice , merely seeking to show to a coupla already qualified pilots on here there really is no cause for confusion .

I don’t think I’ve got anything further to add here.
Good luck
#1911807
Well my RT tutor is a qualified pilot of a number of years and I think much more than 29 but that isn't going to get us anywhere is it?

However, I am just as concerned about the logic of the instruction because that is just how I am. The last thing the ATCO instructs is effectively "shut-up until asked to speak again" By reading back you are (deliberately and willfully) ignoring the last instruction given by the ATCO are you not? That is how I see the logic, otherwise it should be two distinct and clearly separate instructions giving you time to readback the squawk before being asked to standby. Does that make sense?
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911820
@FlyingBoot can you ask your tutor which is better: Apple or Android, as we've been trying to solve that on here for years too, so would be great to have the definitive answer

Joking aside, there can only be a definite answer if rules somewhere define it, and they don't, so until that time it will just be different views and justifications. If you step out of the detail and look at it in context, the 'and standby' shouldn't be needed. But too many pilots go straight into blabbering out their life story without being asked to pass their details, so ATC have added 'and standby' to the squawk request to make it clear they are not yet ready for you to pass your details. In real life some pilots readback the squawk, some don't. No one gets told off, we all live happily ever after.
Last edited by rikur_ on Wed May 18, 2022 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.