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#1910711
Hello everyone, i have my FRTOL exam soon.

I am confident with all of the RTs except for requesting from D&D/London Centre, a position fix or assistance if lost. I've looked through CAP413 and cant find any full example.

Can someone please tell me what a full radio conversation and response be like for the given situation?

Would it be acceptable if i said, for example ''London Centre, G-ABCD, uncertain of position, request position fix"? or "London Centre, G-ABCD, i am lost, requesting assistance". It just doesn't sound correct to me.

Many thanks
#1910719
Page 160 of my Pooley's Comms book gives an example "Training-Fix" call for practising uncertain-of-position, but has a note "If you really are lost you should make a Pan-Pan call". I think I've seen a differentiation between "uncertain of position" and "lost" in some other places too. So if completely lost, I guess it should be a Pan-Pan call to London Centre (in the standard format).

I see CAP413 in the "Training Fix" section also says "Pilots who are unsure of their position should state this and request a position fix or make a PAN call, rather than requesting a training fix" - although as you say there is no concrete example of how to "request a position fix". But I imagine your "London Centre, G-ABCD, uncertain of position, request position fix" would be OK if only uncertain of position and not lost - however in the exam if in doubt it might be safer to make the PAN call.

Note that I am also doing my FRTOL exam soon (on Friday) so the above is all based on my current understanding as a lowly student and might not be entirely correct! :D
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By Irv Lee
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#1910722
I suspect a very good official answer is Squawk 0030 (unless you are not even sure you are in the UK ;-) , or unless you have already been given a squawk in which case tell the atc involved), and treat as urgency ie use panpan with a problem of unsure of position on 121.5 (or the service provider you are with, first)
Last edited by Irv Lee on Mon May 09, 2022 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Irv Lee
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#1910726
it has been lost in the mists of time in some of the training schools but i am fairly sure training fix was introduced to train the staff on 121.5, not primarily for a pilot to fix position - hence the brief format and 'surprise'
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By Milty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910740
Did one on a recent lesson. Can't be 100% sure if it's fully compliant with the protocol and the following is just from recollection, not necessary verbatim but it went something like this...

Tune into 121.5 and listen for a bit (important)
"Practice pan practice pan practice pan, G-ABCD"
G-ABCD - pass your message
"G-ABCD, C152 unsure of position, request position fix"
Squawk XXXX and standby
"Squaking XXXX, standing by"
Position shown as YYYY, does this appear correct?
"Affirm, position identified"
Anything else that we can help with?
"No thank you, appreciate your assistance with the training call - request frequency change to ZZZZ)"
You're welcome - squawk conspicuity and freecall ZZZZ
"Squawk conspicuity, goodbye"

All seemed to go OK so for me, a varition of that without the practice should work OK.

One other point as discussed with my instructor was that in case they were not able to find you via the squawk or no transponder available/broken, they will locate you via a radio fix. They may request you to transmit for 15 to 20 seconds. It's important to apply the PTT and talk for that time with virtually anything - was advised to try to keep it relevant and no smutty jokes but anything to keep transmitting for 15-20 seconds.

I'm yet to do my FRTOL but it has been put across to me that most of the examiners are there to help you pass, not fail you. There are of course limits to that and complete incompetence is not acceptable but the odd slip and some attempt at 'tree' and 'fife' will put you in good stead.

Finally, you may already have this, but there is a FRTOL check-list that is quite handy to look through and be sure that you're at least familiar with all of the points. See https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SR ... ssue05.pdf
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910745
[usermention=25385]@Milty[/usermention] If the objective here is to pass the practical, i would not advise making an urgency call without following the cap413 format of the emergency call (which you didn't!).
If you are talking about what to do if lost in real flight, honestly, if there is the slightest chance that you could be in regulated airspace without permission, priority is tell some official quickly in some way (include setting "0030 alt" if suitable) without spending even a minute digging out something from your bag to say it in the right order.
So usual list of whom to tell is:
If receiving a service. Them.
If not, is the frequency of the suspected airspace easy to see? Then use it.
If none of above, 121.5 are really genuinely pleased if you called them as soon as you can, even whilst not sure that you are not sure.
#1910771
[usermention=28668]@twinotterifr[/usermention] this is a very interesting thread as I am getting close to the FRTOL test and wondered the same thing as there are no examples for position fix. If lost then Pan-pan-pan is appropriate but if just not 100% sure (New road has appeared unexpectedly where the chart shows none, river burst its banks so whole area looks like a lake, etc.) the what? D&D have a started a good series on Flyer and seem to encourage the occasional practice Pan or Training fix so would be more than helpful if really required. But first ask whoever you are recieving a service from of possible. From what I gather from [usermention=123]@Irv Lee[/usermention] sounds like a Pan is appropriate.

Maybe we just have to hope that it doesn't come up in the FRTOL practical.
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By Milty
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#1910778
[usermention=123]@Irv Lee[/usermention] Thanks for the feedback.

The practice pan was as advised by my instructor as a useful thing to learn. Fully agreed that if expected to be in controlled airspace that it's not the thing to do and to contact the service you are on, next the airspace you think you are in and finally 121.5. It was just an exercise to experience what it's like to call London Centre for a position fix.

We did it as a practice pan rather than a training fix because a practice pan is more what you would do if genuinely lost rather than a training fix.

I've not scoured CAP413 line by line, but I'm not sure where I've not complied with it apart from after the practice pan x3, should have said London Centre before callsign (and maybe I did - in fairness, my post was not necessarily verbatim). After the 'pass your message', should I still go through the complete emergency message message, e.g. as per the below list. It was put to me that roughly what I did makes sense and is acceptable as points 6 onwards (apart from maybe point 7) don't add anything to the situation and just clogs up the frequency.

Interested to get your further thoughts.

1. ‘MAYDAY/MAYDAY/MAYDAY’ (or ‘PAN PAN/PAN PAN/PAN PAN’);
2. Name of the station addressed (when appropriate and time and
circumstances permitting);
3. Callsign;
4. Type of aircraft;
5. Nature of the emergency;
6. Intention of the person-in-command;
7. Present or last known position, flight level/altitude and heading;
8. Pilot qualifications (See Note 1), viz:
a) Student pilots (see Notes 2 and 3);
b) No Instrument Qualification;
c) IMC Rating;
d) Full Instrument Rating.
9. Any other useful information e.g. endurance remaining, number of
people on board (POB), aircraft colour/markings, any survival aids.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910782
Milty wrote:

> I've not scoured CAP413 line by line, but I'm not sure where I've not
> complied with it apart from after the practice pan x3

Replying "standing by" when instructed to standby is not official phraseology. "Standby" means "shut up and wait".

IIRC we've debated how to respond before when they both give you an instruction that requires readback, and say standby in the same transmission, which is slightly contradictory.

To "Squawk 1234 and standby", I would reply with "Squawk 1234 G-XX", and nothing else.
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#1910809
TopCat wrote:

> To "Squawk 1234 and standby", I would reply with "Squawk 1234
> G-XX", and nothing else.

And I would set the squawk and stand by until told to 'Pass your message', in which I would confirm the squawk I had set.

Neither of us can be faulted, though I would hold I was righter as I had complied with the instruction AND read back the Squawk, all be it the latter not immediately. :D

Rob P
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910811
My inference from the receipt of the instruction from ATC (or whatever) of 'squawk 3456 and standby' is that the controller is getting overloaded /has a lot on his plate/needs breathing space at that particular moment.

All instructions received containing numbers/frequencies/clearances to runways etc must be repeated to ensure correct receipt/compliance.

The last thing the controller wants is to see the wrong squawk appear on his screen - he may already have issued your wrongly dialled in squawk to another a/c he's controlling- and have to waste further time on getting it corrected.

So the correct response to 'squawk 3456 and standby' is to read it back immediately and correctly, then enter the given squawk code, then keep yer gob shut and standby till further comms received. :wink:
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